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Squawks & HeadlinesTBM700 plane crashes on NJ highway; 5 dead

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TBM700 plane crashes on NJ highway; 5 dead

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A small plane has crashed on the busy Interstate 287 in Harding, located in northern New Jersey. State Police Trooper Christopher Kay says there is a report of three possible deaths in the crash. Shona Sternberg of Hillsborough tells The Star-Ledger of Newark that she was about three cars behind where the plane went down and saw an explosion when the aircraft hit. She says it looked like the right wing was breaking off before the plane went down. (www.huffingtonpost.com) More...

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jasperjohn4
john sash 1
I witnessed this flight go down because of hearing the craft above getting into trouble. I heard the plane from my location far overhead hidden by cloud cover sounding relatively normal but getting louder. There was a loud metallic
jasperjohn4
john sash 1
I witnessed this flight go down because of hearing the craft above getting into trouble. I heard the plane from my location far overhead hidden by cloud cover sounding relatively normal but getting louder. There was a loud metallic "slap" sound, something like hitting a raingutter downspout with one's open palm, and then the craft instantly sounded as if it was rolling horizontal at high speed, with a pronounced prop unbalance sound. my location was over 1 mile from the actual crash site, but because of the loud sound, the crafts path was easily tracked south by me even though it was still hidden in the relatively high clouds. when the plane dropped from the clouds after aprox 10-15 seconds, it appeared to be inverted, and was discharging a thin trail of white smoke from the front ahead of the cockpit.There was a pronounced "pop", and the prop became silent as the plane spun directly toward the ground, and the rudder section appeared to separate just as it dissapear from my view. We immediatly drove to the site, (i work for a towing contractor which works for the state pd) and the wreckage was distributed across the highway from south to north. the tail section pieces were located aprox 1/6 mile south of the powerplant which ended up in the center of the northbound lanes after cutting a diagnal path across the roadway thru trees in the center divider. The first main wing that witnesses saw break off aparently first contacted trees and then a 40 foot tall sound barrier wall on an entrance ramp to rt287s as it's spin flattened once the tail came apart. The remaining craft crossed the active roadway and appeard to have struck a relatively new dodge pick up with its wing, although the driver and occupants of that vehicle were unsure as to what happened. The reason I assert this contact is because the damage to the truck appeared to have been caused by something traveling across it's front section, first breaking its passenger side headlamp, then breaking it's grille, next, flattening it's drivers side tire. The entire truck was covered with jet fuel, the scrape mark across the front was in a narrow top to bottom right to left pattern, and the grille rim and tire were filled with a honeycomb material that was soaked with fuel. Interesting to note is the tire(which we changed) was not punctured, but was off its bead. There were various landing gear hydraulics, a fuel pressure indicator, aircraft manual, as well as personal items and other remains, located on the roadway prior to the final impact area and fire site which was concentrated in the center median aprox 50-60 ft across at that point. Other witnesses and I filled out reports by forms handed out by the state pd, no idea what the disposition of them was. This thing was in serious trouble for a fair stretch of horizontal flight,and for a moment, I thought it was a copter in trouble because of the very loud and odd rotating engine and prop sound. Very sad.
jimarbu
Jim Arbuckle 0
Why is it odd? Is it relevant?
makonyy15
Morristown Tower is covered by LiveATC. There's a chance this was picked up by their feed. Archives are already available for 15:00-15:30 Zulu. Worth a shot.
BenKFIT
Ben Lillie 0
There are five posts for this article.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 0
Socata TBM-700 N731CA
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
What was the weather?
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 0
That was the filed cruise altitude. Looks like whatever happened occurred about 17,400 according to the tracking info.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
May they rest in peace and my condolences to the families. Not good, especially so close to Christmas.
fsxnate
Nate Bonyun 0
my condolences go out to the families who are suffering such a sad loss
ssdriver
Drew Archer 0
The track is confusing. Overstress?
bashdan
Bash Dan 0
Another pilot down.... RIP CAPT.!
bashdan
Bash Dan 0
I'm very anxious to read the FAA report on this when it is completed. He lost a wing, spiraled, and then crashed... sounds like her was trying to make an off airport emergency landing and possibly struck some power lines? ...or could have been icing, but the Socata's have KI capabilities right? Who knows...too early to tell.
MeanMrMustard
MeanMrMustard 0
Eerie... The investment bank's Wiki page has already been updated with Mr. Buckalew's passing.

Check the "operations" section of the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhill_%26_Co.
ssdriver
Drew Archer 0
Wow updated Wiki already? Thats not Eerie.. thats flat out MESSED UP.
TroyLR31
Troy Mitchell 0
Live ATC ZNY-MDT-Dec-20-2011-1500Z.mp3
listen at the 3:30 mark. not much but lots of talk about icing at 17000 ft
KingAirB200
KingAirB200 0
how would u get to play back morristown atc?
Stargazing
Stargazing 0
Looks like he didn't maintain about 140kts in the climb to keep ice off the rest of the plane and it stalled. Very sad.
jjsifo
Sorry,really sorry.Will pray.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
Inertial Separator.

I'm guessing that if it wasn't turned on (and if it needs
to be turned on and I think it might), maybe airspeed bled
off fast (really fast) and he got too slow too fast. He
might have went below the minimum icing airspeed (somewhere
around 140 knots?) and stalled?

My respects go out to the unfortunate people that lost
their lives today and I hope their families can get through
this tragedy.
garp
garp 0
Very sad. I've got all of about 1.5 hours as PIC in a TBM-700, but am perplexed. Prayers for the victims and their families.
slc7811
Steve Leaven 0
On the ATC tape he declared an emergency at 3:40 seconds. I'm sorry for the families involved, please don't look for answers quickly the results will never change...
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 0
very sad indeed....always worse when there are children involved and it is around the holidays....R.I.P
colbro
Colin Brown 0
I understand the need to not "rush to judgment" here. But hearing Wisconsin 3737 - a CRJ jet - say the ice was severe at 17,000 feet and their equipment couldn't keep up with the accumulation, it is certainly going to be a factor. Other aircraft on the links you all provided are reporting tops at 17,000, which gives weight to the rule that the worst icing is at the top of the clouds. This should be a major NTSB effort.
kangforpres
Shouldn't all planes that routinely fly above 10,000 ft. be required to have de-icing equipment, a press report says the TBM700 does not have one? It has a service ceiling of 310.
MANBOI
MANBOI 0
It has boots.
eelb
For the money, buy a used Citation or King Air. Despite the TBM's cost and performance, at the end of the day, you still have a small single engine airplane. With many of the inherent limitations associated with such aircraft. No matter how much money one spends on an "all-weather" airplane, there are days to humble one's self and use the airlines, or just stay on the ground.
kangforpres
Good Point Brent, all GA pilots have an option of not going, they need to remember this more often and we would see less accidents and deaths
MAKPilot718
Mark Krawiec 0
Must be very frightening to see that happening right in front of you.
pilot62
Got to say
pilot62
Get there itus, got them, why take a chance like this with your entire family. a friend and your dog. Sorry but this guy had enough money to fly first on any airline at anytime. When will we ever learn....
DougBuckalew
Doug Buckalew 0
To all the forum users here - I appreciate very much your comments about this tragic accident that took my brother's, his families and his colleague's life this morning. It gives us some perspective. I flew with him several times and always felt very safe. His attention to pre-flight checks was impeccable. LIke many of you have said we can speculate all we want, but we are just going to have to wait and see what the NTSB says. I could recognize his voice early on in the tape and he did not sound in distress at all.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 0
@Doug.....sorry for your and your family's loss
flymu2b
I fly a TBM profesionally for a company, it is an outstanding aircraft and handles icing conditions very well. Like any aircraft you have to respect it's capabilities and limitations. In 25+ years and close to 10,000 hours I have not found any aircraft that can handle sustained flight in severe icing conditions (SLD) to include heated flying surfaces jets. And yes the TBM like almost all PT-6 powered aircraft does have a particle separator that must be deployed prior to entering icing conditions.
weatherspmd
weatherspmd 0
Here is the 00z (7 AM) Sounding from KOKX. Note the saturated layer between 13kft and 19kft and the 50 kt gain in wind speed from the due West (270°) from 10kft to 16kft.

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/soundings/11122012_OBS/OKX.gif
f111jock
Art Turner 0
Doug,
It is with a very sad heart i say sorry to you for your loss of family and friends. I can only hope you will find a peace in your heart knowing your brother did what he loved.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
Since the speed tracked is groundspeed, the TAS was probably much higher due to headwinds. I saw 50kts reported somewhere. Severe icing will significantly increase the stall speed as we all know.
ansonj
ansonj 0
Ice & flying still doesn't go well together. And the crash at College Station, TX shows us that thunderstorms and flying doesn't either.
bbabis
bbabis 0
My thoughts and prayers go to the families of those involved. May the Lord give comfort.

Lesson to pilots: No matter the aircraft or it's deice capability, you cannot always climb out of icing conditions. There may come a time to descend while under control instead of trying to climb until control is lost.
USMA61
USMA61 0
Makes me wonder if other aircraft in the area were experiencing icing conditions. I hope the FAA accident investigation team will give us a very detailed report on what possibly happened to cause this unfortunate incident. My prayers for the families involved. May God watch over them.
tbpera
Tom Pera 0
as an ex-air controller, I can tell you this pilot had "got to get there-itis" meaning he was so intent on getting somewhere he ignored common sense -- once had a pilot with wife and 2 small kids take off at So Lake Tahoe after we repeatedly advised him of adverse weather conditions - can't refuse take-off clearance..always up to the pilot... anyway he veered off to the east after hitting downdraft we told him about and went into a large snow bank - drove gear up through the wings... thankfully all survived ... used to witness a crash every 2-3 weeks up there... all due to stupid pilots that tried to fly at the wrong time in the the wrong conditions - got story after story
ssdriver
Drew Archer 0
Cold wet and rainy today, driving past the crash site on 287 early this morning on the way to work. As a new pilot it was very, very sobering.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
De-icing boots on most small aircraft have a very limited operating envelope. If you use them before there is at least an inch of ice buildup, the ice may not break up and could cause a hollow underneath the ice. They will then be totally useless. They also cannot cope with heavy icing. Best to avoid heavy icing conditions altogether.
mtnlion44
Matt Felix 0
God, the tone on this broad is so civil and intelligent. Really a great crew. I need to just stop reading the newspapers. I is interesting the combination of respect for a fellow pilot along w/ some admonishment w/ an understanding that anyone is capable of using bad judgment. There is a distinct lack of scorn. Very professional
racerman
larry clement 0
To the media. anything other than than an airliner is a "small" plane. I have seen Gulfstream G5's referred to as "small" That is a $50 MILLION plane. The TBM that crashed cost about $3 million new, and was equipped with most of the same equipment as airliners.

As far as general aviation is concerned,about 17% of light plane crashes are fatal, resulting in an average of two fatalities per fatal crash.There are usally about 700 to 800 people killed in private plane crashes each year in the US, that is why they make headlines- it is a relatively rare occasion. There are approximately 40,000 people killed in auto and truck accidents yearly, so it isn't as big a deal, except to the families and friends of those lost.

Most accidents are caused by a combinations of several factors, not just one . That is probably the case here. The NTSB investigators will do a good job, and in time will issue a report.Until that time there will be much conjecture and statements ,much of which will be erroneous. Most people , including the media, don't even know what makes an airplane fly- and certainly not what makes one crash.

May they Rest in Peace, and condolences to the families and friends
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
I hanen't flown one. Does "Inert Sep" On affect climb performance?
chalet
chalet 0
I couple of days ago I said the following in this Blog: "Thou shalt never believe the reports issued by "eye witness", 99.99% of the cases they don't know what the hell they are talking about. Somebody says now that one of the wings of the TBM 700 separated before the crash. Impossible". To this I should add "Do NOT believe what the newspapers say about accidents, the reporters are very ignorant people who write without knowing anything about aviation matters". There!!!
chalet
chalet 0
Wayne and other pilot bloggers. I was checking the recent history of this aircraft and it logged less than 20 hours since Aug. 2011 (5 months). Assuming that the same pilot flew it, isn't it too little to keep proficient in a high performance aircraft.
delazar
Juan del azar 0
Very sorry Doug.
porscheracing
Ben Galvacky 0
Hi Doug, sorry for you loss and I'm sure the NTSB will eventually displace the speculation. No words are appropiate during these times but as a pilot I can relate to the desire to fly and know how important flying is to myself. The name "Buckalew" is familar since I knew an "Abby Buckalew" way back from NJ. I only wish the best for everyone and pray for all those affected.
crjp74
Luis Torres 0
I think another one of these aircraft went down on Florida turnpike not too long ago!
B4vols
Robert Yeiser 0
May God Bless that family.
hiflier32
ric lang 0
IT SEEMS THAT UNLESS IT'S AN AIRBUS 380 THAT HITS THE DIRT, IT'S GOING TO BE A "SMALL" AIRPLANE....LOVE THE MEDIA!
hiflier32
ric lang 0
IT WOULD APPEAR THAT UNLESS IT'S AN AIRBUS 380 THAT HITS THE DIRT, IT'S GOING TO BE A "SMALL" AIRPLANE.......LOVE THE MEDIA!
astrojet120
astrojet120 0
Odd that they don't mention the age of the plane?
B4vols
Robert Yeiser 0
You're right sounds like it was realitively new by listening to the NTSB spokesman Bob G.
spencerdog9576
Steve Remy 0
I am a small time pilot, 650 hours, mostly in Mooneys. Alot of actual IFR. I mean absolutely no disrespect, but this reminds me of the Thurmond Munson crash. I guess I am dating myself here. Just because you have the means to fly very high performance complex aircraft, we need to respect that aircraft. Even F-22's have envelopes of what they can and cannot do. My heart goes out to the friends and family. I have lost 2 fellow pilots over the years.
B4vols
Robert Yeiser 0
I lost my uncle in a KDVT Ciirrus SR-22 crash.They still don't know for sure why that happened.Very rough going for the family.
mtnlion44
Matt Felix 0
It seems to me that there is enough hard data and enough collective knowledge here for this to be a valuable exercise. Human beings like to do stuff like this and overall the habit has served us quite well. While it is not a substitute for the full NTSB investigation, it is worthwhile, nonetheless, IMO.
tucsonguy
Ralph Addison 0
I think I listen to ATC the other night and the controller was askig planes to check for a plane that disappeared, They indicated on had crash on the highway 287
theo007
Theo Hug 0
Sorry Doug this for the loss of your brother and familly

Theo from the nort Canada
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Even if all the speculation turns out to be wrong, it will cause a lot of pilots to think twice before charging off into challenging IMC. That alone will probably save a few lives, but we will never know whose lives. I doubt most of the folk shouting for a halt to all speculation until the Government tells us what happened would apply that rule in any other aspect of their lives. The arguments for encouraging pre-Government Report speculation are far stronger than the "shut up and wait for the Government to tell you" arguments.

Shutting up and waiting might make the experience of the friends and loved ones more palatable, but it goes against the grain of human nature. I would recommend that folks offended by speculation not read it.
Dwkryder
Donald Kryder 0
If the N number N731CA is correct it was manufactured in 2005 with an airworthiness date of 09/22/2005 so, as GA aircraft goes it was not old at all.
Merlinco
Having the wing come off is not impossible, this happens all the time. All that is needed is overstress of the airframe. Overstress happens after loss of control, loss of control can happen for a variety of reasons. It seems possible that the plane was stalled because of ice build up. The pilot, not having reference to the horizon could easily have gone over Vne trying to effect a recovery, anything beyond Vne will severly damage the aircraft.
Merlinco
Many IFR pilots have lost track of the horizon over the years. Sometimes it's a pilot issue, sometimes an instrument problem. Artificial horizons can malfunction under conditions they are not designed for such as aerobatic maneuvers.
In aviation, nothing is impossible.
richarddick
Milldj@frontier.com
Maarestad
Mike Aarestad 0
I am not aware that only ATP pilots know about the Flight Level(FL) altitude reporting system for aircraft above 18,000.
Maarestad
Mike Aarestad 0
I am not aware of only ATP pilots knowing about the Flight Level (FL) altitude reporting reommendations on flights above 18,000. Thanks Ralph
jdanish
jdanish 0
Checking several of the previous flights of this airplane, on climb, the airspeed varied from 130kts to over 300kts. Wild fluctuation of the graph. Check the previous flights. Sure looks like something was wrong, no steady climb rate either, should have had an autopilot?
jd
astrojet120
astrojet120 0
Odd that the age of the TBM700 wasn't mentioned.
gerardc
Craig Gerard 0
Sorry for your loss. You dad was my prof at Wake Med, I recognized the name. In our prayers
Craig
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 0
Article says it was a Socata TBM-700, not an SR-22.
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 0
combined now
bovineone
Jeff Lawson 0
At nearby Morristown: KMMU 201545Z 02005KT 10SM BKN110 06/M02 A3018

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KMMU/weather
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
The track looks weird too. Looks like it was completely out of control. I'm assuming that the long straight track off to the northwest was not part of the flight.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 0
Looks like 5 fatalities now. Wing section located several blocks north of main impact would certainly indicate an in flight break up.
dbaker
Daniel Baker 0
There was some erroneous data from the FAA that we have now removed.
TroyLR31
Troy Mitchell 0
Its at the 3.45 mark and he is declaring an emergency.
Falconus
Falconus 0
Let's not speculate; often when there is an aircraft accident, there are five expert accident investigators who know exactly what happened (carb icing on a fuel-injected engine, for example). However, it almost always turns out in the final report to be unrelated to any of these conclusions. The news media screws the facts up enough as it is; no need to give them speculation for a real hay-day.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
Of course it has boots. But I'm not sure if the
engine intake needs to be turned on (in conjunction
with the inertial separator)with a switch.

But even if that switch exists and it's required to
be activated, he could have gone down anyway by flying
too slow - maybe even trying to punch through the last
(iciest) layer to get over the "extreme" icing.

If the minimum airspeed isn't maintained when a plane
is flying through ice, it can stall because the ice
builds up under the leading edge of the wing.
Stargazing
Stargazing 0
I speculate from experience and the tape, they were in icing from 12k up, from others reporting in the area, fltaware track confirms slowing A/S and climb rate, that plane will climb 1500 FPM up to 25k. Also Most Icing climb A/Speeds must be above 140kts to keep the ice off the parts of the wing that the boots don't reach. Im not an expert and it is speculation, but that is what these post are for I guess or just post condolences and move on.
jjsifo
Been a Law Enforcement Pilot for many years,we have experienced several accidents,
both Fixed wing and Rotorcraft.Lost co-workers,friends some as a result of the accidents,one shot from the ground.We have learned to not comment,speculate, or try to figure out what happened talking to others,we have kept it private.
ethepilot
Eric Horton 0
I fly the TBM professionally as well and agree 100% with Brett. The plane is fine when limitations are respected.
MANBOI
MANBOI 0
Sorry for your loss.

You should take comfort in the fact your brother was doing something he loved with his family and friend.

Please be prepared as it will be a year or more before you get some answers from the NTSB, which may be incomplete and quite frequently they will list the primary cause as 'pilot error'. Hopefully others will learn or benefit from this in the future.
dbaker
Daniel Baker 0
That's a FlightAware file photo of a TBM700. This is not an actual photo of N731CA.
chalet
chalet 0
Thou shalt never believe the reports issued by "eye witness", 99.99% of the cases they don't know what the hell they are talking about. Somebody says now that one of the wings of the TBM 700separated before the crash. Impossible.
JCCasebeer
John Casebeer 0
Sure sounds like ice. If the report the wing broke off is true (?) maybe it happened during the descent. The comment about "get thereitis' applies to a lot of GA accidents and probably some part 121 ops. My condolences to the families.
thirsche
thirsche 0
@Doug, so sorry for your loss. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
CannonCH
Sorry, Ralph. That is incorrect.

After the ATR crash in Roselawn, and the Brasilia crash near Detroit in the late '90's, the FAA went to great lenghts to determine the best methods for the use of deice boots. All of us learned to fly using the 'wait untili the boots are covered before blowing the boots' mentality, and all of us had to chnage our mindset after those two accidents. NASA and the FAA spend lots of time and money researching this, and determined that modern boots do not demostrate the ice bridging that you mention. There are no aircraft in existence that can cope with severe icing, large or small, no matter how they are deiced.

If we waited until we had an inch of ice on the wings before we activated the boots, aircraft would be raining from the sky.
wxmeddler
wxmeddler 0
More like 100 kts and since he was flying due west, all of that 100 kts was going over the wings directly. Look at weatherspmd's post above with the skew-t chart. The barbs on the right is true windspeed. So take the groundspeed and add the windspeed*COS(0) = 100* 1 = 100+ groundspeed. Maybe he turned to go south and lost that TAS which lead to a icy stall. Just hypothesizing.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
I haven't flown one and probably never will, but does "Inert Sep On" diminish climb performance?
ewakefield
So incredibly sorry about your loss, Doug. I worked with Jeff for 12 years and knew him as a talented, warm, generous, friendly, capable and professional person, destined for the very top. His untimely loss is profoundly shocking. I also flew with Jeff (am a pilot myself) and vouch for your comment that his attention in whatever he did, including flying, was done to the highest standard. I cannot believe that he would have taken any chance anyway, let alone with Corinne, Jackson, Meriweather and Rakesh also on board. Let's see what the NTSB says, and hope they look into this as thoroughly as is clearly necessary. In the meantime we mourn them all deeply. RIP, and many prayers.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Even if all the speculation turns out to be wrong, it will cause a lot of pilots to think twice before charging off into challenging IMC. That alone will probably save a few lives, but we will never know whose lives. I doubt most of the folk shouting for a halt to all speculation until the Government tells us what happened would apply that rule in any other aspect of their lives. The arguments for encouraging pre-Government Report speculation are far stronger than the "shut up and wait for the Government to tell you" arguments.

Shutting up and waiting might make the experience of the friends and loved ones more palatable, but it goes against the grain of human nature. I would recommend that folks offended by speculation not read it.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
Unless that airplane flew more on VFR practice flights over the weekend, that's
way too little for a high performance airplane like the TBM. Turboprops are not
weekend pilot 'toys' for hobbyists that only fly in VFR conditions not too far
from home. They're serious traveling machines and things happen fast. I have about 500 hours in turboprops and 2600 in complex twins like Barons - and I flew a lot!

To me, it looks like this pilot got in trouble when he entered the clouds. He
told ATC that he was entered "VMC" - but he quickly corrected himself by saying IMC. Those mean visual meteorological conditions and instrument meteorological conditions respectively. Little things like that can imply that you're not flying a lot.

And if you're not flying that type of machine consistently (or at least practicing
consistently), it's little things that can add up when you enter the icy clouds.
For example, was the pitot heat turned on? If not, the ice will build up on the
device that measures the airspeed (air inflow) and it shows you're going faster
than you are. The autopilot can correct by increasing the climb even though you're not going that fast and a stall can happen.

Other things can happen like I said before - was the inertial separator turned on
that's designed to separate any ice from the air coming into the combustion chamber. Was the intake heat turned on that lets the air into the engine to being
with?

Many things can happen if you're not flying at least 100 hours per year in a plane
like that. And to me, that's the bare minimum - and I don't think a scheduled
airline would allow so few hours - they always fly in teams anyway = cross check
everything. That's why, in my view, a 'part time pilot' should actually even try
practice harder. And even if they're with an alleged co-pilot, is he type rated or
at least checked out in a complex turbine?
delazar
Juan del azar 0
Really sorry Doug. It wont bring them back, but lets hope the NTSB can determine exactly what happened. I would encourage monday morning quarterbacks to keep their opinions to themselves and trust the most professional accident organisation do its work
stoppe
stoppe 0
The ice equipment must be operated properly as well as fully functioning. It can be a challenge to keep all aspects of a known ice package working properly. There are so many components that something is always breaking. Severe icing can overwhelm a deicing system leaving barely enough time to react and change altitudes. This flight was only 14 minutes long!
hjfischer1
Herb Fischer 0
Brett, I hear you! I have 30,000+ on the heaviest and most expensive Iron, and God can throw solidified water at you that no systems can handle.

I remember back 50 years ago to when a fellow USAF guy stomped into Operations and slammed a chunk of ice that must have weighed 50 lbs on the weatherguessers desk....

"Here's your Light to (bleeping)moderate!
blucenturion
blucenturion 0
Thurmon Munson was doing touch and go's in a Citation when he crashed short of the runway.
jmountz
John Mountz 0
Yes, by all means, speculate. The flight track of the TBM700 indicates that both the speed and direction were erratic during the last few minutes of flight. Ice can cause fast and unpredictable results depending on the plane AND pilot. Check this link for conditions for this flight. http://avwxworkshops.com/forum/read.php?8,443
How about this scenario? About 30 years ago, in a PA201/R, I was approaching an airport through a thin layer (I could see through it). Although no ice was in the forecast (not too accurate in those days) my pitot heat was on, ice rapidly clogged the ram air. My IAS dropped to 40 knts, causing the gear to automatically partially extend. It was night and the combined "gear unsafe" light and horn distracted me enough to inadvertently start a turn (no autopilot). With a faulty airspeed and VSI indication, and in IMC, it was difficult to know if I was too slow or too fast. Only after leveling my wings and correcting my attitude was I confirmed I was rapidly descending and corrected. After I landed I noticed about 1/2 inch of ice protruding from my pitot tube and the leading edges of all surfaces. I am amazed that there were so many PIREPS of mod rime, mostly after this tragic ending. STAY ON THE GROUND unless you know you and your plane can handle this kind of weather.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Where do you find that kind of data?
MAXSPENCER
MAX SPENCER 0
perhaps fewer accidents and deaths too.
astrojet120
astrojet120 0
The age of a plane makes a huge difference, How many Warbirds crashed for no reason?
hiflier32
ric lang 0
SO RALPH...ARE YOU REALLY AN ATP/
hiflier32
ric lang 0
SO RALPH..ARE YOU REALLY AN ATP????
astrojet120
astrojet120 0
Well that narrows it down to a faulty de-icer. They're always re-calling cars
for some defective parts maybe this one slipped past inspection. You can't blame
pilot error on bad parts. we'll see what FAA says.
chalet
chalet 0
Wings come off when VFR-only pilots fly into clouds then spin out of control and overstress the airframe as is the case when VFR-only pilots fly into clouds. That the plane stalled due to ice build up is a possible reason but that the pilot lost reference to the horizon, impossible since he was IFR-rated.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
I hope they can figure out if the A/P was engaged on the Accident Flight. That's a pretty smooth climb to be hand flown, even as the climb rate and speed began to deteriorate at around 13,000. Use of the A/P is prohibited in severe icing in the 700, in fact the plane is prohibited from flight in severe icing, as are most boot-equipped aircraft. The POM says that if you should find yourself in heavy ice, one of the first things you do is disengage the A/P. The purpose, i believe, is to give the pilot a better "feel" for what is going on. The A/P can cover up that feel for a while, until it disengages automatically and hands the pilot an iced up, slow, out of trim, uncontrollable airplane. Isn't that similar to what happened to AF447?

Re the other flights, the Local on 4-17 looks to me to be a practice flight, hand flown, which included slow flight and speeds approaching a stall, maybe in different configurations? The 4-19 hop looks like it was hand flown too, with altitudes varying by about 100 feet from the cruise altitude of 4,500. The rest of them appear to have been primarily flown by spinning the dials, with very few if any deviations for very long periods.

One of the things that stopped me from flying myself around was my increasing reliance on the A/P and how my hand flying skills, especially in IMC, were deteriorating. I just wasn't getting enough time to maintain proficiency without all of the automatic stuff working properly. It wasn't a happy decision but it just might have saved my life, and the lives of my family.

I see that my old plane, Bonanza N67799, a B36TC is still very active out in the east and seems to perform like it always did. It's pretty clear to me from looking at its tracks which portions were hand flown and which were A/P.

I'm new to this website and still learning how to use it - pretty interesting stuff here.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
I've lost 4, one of whom cut a meeting with me short because he "had to get to Cuyama in time to do all the things I need to do there and make it back here tomorrow night."

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-11-20/local/me-5330_1_oxnard-airport
jmountz
John Mountz 1
I agree with Doug. The pilot boxed himself in, a sign of inexperience. Amoung other possibilities, the pilot must take action when ice is encountered. If I encounter ice I immediately do everything I can to get out of it. Ice can always become an emergency so forget the origional plan. First I go lower or to an altitude that I know did not have ice. This pilot tried to climb through it for several minutes as idicated by the decreasing airspeed indicating a continual increase in ice. I used to do that 20-30 years ago but no more. Why not simply go down where there was no ice. Even go to 090 and lower where the weather was better, go back and land where you just took off. Forget the important meeting or whatever was so important that he had to get there today. The same applys to all bad Wx, such as thunderstorms over the destination airport. Land somewhere else. If I really had to get there "today", in this case, knowing the Wx will be bad the next day, I would havve left the evening before. I alter the day of departure or return bur +/- 1 day almost 1/3 of the times I go flying now. I might miss a few things, but I also miss the bad weather.
Falconus
Falconus 0
*I meant to say "five expert accident investigators on the news article comment forums".
ibock
Ian Bock 0
Who writes your stuff?
makonyy15
Ah- see it now. My mistake. Posted the link before the article was updated to include info about the TBM.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
It seems like the aircraft was flying at FL260?
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 0
Correct. I noticed there was also a 100 knot jet streak near FL180 at about that time. Maybe CAT played a role. Easy to speculate at this time.
BoeingFan59
Troy Raiteri 0
Trying to find the archive of it in LiveATC but I can't find the ZNY MDT thing....maybe he was in the HAR or the Joliet part of ZNY.
thirsche
thirsche 0
Here is the link:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klns/ZNY-MDT-Dec-20-2011-1500Z.mp3

Sounds like ATC asked jazz7650 to contact him. At 8:13 you hear "i missed the number for Jazz 7650" then at 8:22 you hear what sounds like him calling "N7..." and then he is stepped on. Then at 8:34 Jazz tells "no response". You can't hear ATC talking to him unfortunately. Then you hear them all talking about the icing at FL170 and how it's a "bad deal" It's also interesting to note the steady drop in airspeed but I am not familiar with the TBM700.

As Mike said, easy to speculate but sounds like the icing was severe on the way up and earlier, thought I heard a commercial flight say the boots couldn't keep up.

My heart goes out to their families.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
<<But even if that switch exists and it's required to
be activated,..>>

I meant to say that even if it was activated...
MANBOI
MANBOI 0
I was replying to the comment above mine that suggested the TBM doesn't have deicing equip.
TroyLR31
Troy Mitchell 0
Its all speculation until the NTSB gives an answer, but the icing in the area is not speculation. So one other problem in those conditions then things start happening real fast.
dbaker
Daniel Baker 0
(as indicated in the description, we don't typically do that)
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
You're right. I stand corrected. I haven't flown a small plane since before that recommendation came out. This is the recommendation: http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/safetyalerts/SA_014.pdf
Kingair31
Kingair31 0
Chalet, Do you have an instrument rating? If you do, please don't fly in IMC without some recurrent training.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
I should have said that IF it's only about 100 hours per year
in the type of complex aircraft, that should be supplemented
with recurrent simulator training every six months with
consistent weekend simulated approaches in between that biannual
recurrent training.
DougBuckalew
Doug Buckalew 0
Thank you for your thought Juan - I agree!
delazar
Juan del azar 0
You are making too many assumptions without enough information. Many have been humbled doing so and wished they kept their uninformed comments to themselves.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
Steep spiral, possible.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
John, that's true.
But he would have lived if he
was wearing his shoulder harness.
He hit his head hard on the instrument
panel - but he died of asphyxiation - not
blunt force trauma. His flight instructor
and passenger survived.

TBM's (and Cirrus') have four point restraints
now. Munson's Citation had a regular shoulder
harness - but he wasn't wearing it.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Meaning the flight hour data?
MAXSPENCER
MAX SPENCER 0
Impossible that the wing separated or that somebody said it separated? Speak plainly please.
MAXSPENCER
MAX SPENCER 0
Do you work for the aircraft company or just wish to criticize the pilot?
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
That's a little too speculative even for me.
spencerdog9576
Steve Remy 0
To astrojet120. Apparently you are not a pilot. Please keep you comments educated. Your repeated comments about age of airplane and 'final check' leaves me to believe you are very young and not very well versed about aviation in general. "Recalling cars"....look up AD's.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
A spin is a one G maneuver. Wings don't fall off in spins. Steep spirals, however...
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Impossible for an IFR rated pilot to crash after loss of control due to spatial disorientation? Now THAT's impossible!
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Correction: 11-17 and 11-19. I thought today was Christmas and not Easter...
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
But, and this should make the "don't speculate" guys happy. Something did apparently go wrong with the prop on the missed approach, and it is listed as a contributing factor to the pilot's failure to, etc.... To my knowledge the propeller mystery was never completely solved.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=35796
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
@Astro: One of the great joys of my life is helping the younger generation to learn about things that interest them. I admire your interest in aviation. If you want to really learn about it, I suggest you start where most of the rest of us did, right here:

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/1941
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
<< impossible since he was IFR-rated.>>

chalet, I don't mean any disrespect. But I know several IFR rated pilots
that have killed themselves and their passengers because they're weren't
current. And I don't mean the bear minimum FAA mandated simulated IFR
approaches ever six months - even if they adhere to that, that's plenty
short of what's truly competent. In fact, if you're IFR rated and you do
the bear minimum proficiency requirements, you might even kill people faster
because you think you're better than you really are - and when it's too
late because the unforgiving machine and weather get the best of you (and
it happens fast), it's literally & catastrophically too late.
MANBOI
MANBOI 0
Very sad.
wbohannon
Mr Mcleod, as per the maintenance manual, the inertial separator provides a means to remove solid particles from the ambient air. It does not remove ice from the air entering the combustion chamber. It is used as an aid, to help remove solid particles(ice, rocks, screws), from the air entering the intake plenum of the PT6 engine. Then it would have to make it by the intake screen, then it would be shredded by the first stage compressor blades.

There is no option turn off/on intake heat on the TBM700/850. Warm air is provided at a constant rate from the exhaust stacks to the plenum inlet. IMO, if ice was causing engine performance issues, the pilot would seen peculiar instrument readings.

Was this a Garmin bird? The CAS would have been displaying master cautions and master warnings based of those readings. It really seems to me that this was an airframe ice issue. Anyway, may those lost rest in peace. My regards to the family.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
...are really really scary, right up the point where the lights go out.
dbaker
Daniel Baker 0
There was some erroneous data from the FAA that we have now removed.
MANBOI
MANBOI 0
Like commenting about carb icing regarding an accident involving a PT6A.
BoeingFan59
Troy Raiteri 0
Never mind found it.
thirsche
thirsche 0
Well said Troy - real fast. Also agree that the icing reports are not speculation as the ground speed and rate of climb are not either. As I said, I am unfamiliar with the TBM700. Maybe that's a normal profile looking profile. Either way, very sad for those that have lost loved ones. Safe holidays everyone.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
<<But I know several IFR rated pilots
that have killed themselves and their passengers because they're weren't
current.>>

Correction - I meant to say they weren't current.
stoppe
stoppe 0
I am sure recurrent training was required by the insurance carrier. By the time a pilot gets to flying a TBM700 they usually are a serious aviation enthusiast that takes flying and training extremely seriously. These aircrafts attract type "A" personalities, people skilled at multitasking and hyper-focusing.
mtnlion44
Matt Felix 0
It seems to me that there is enough hard data and collective knowledge for this to be a valuable exercise. It is understood that it is speculation in-part and that it is not a substitute for the NTSB investigation. Human beings like to talk shop and overall the habit has served us quite well. As someone who is considering becoming a pilot, I find these exercises very informative.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
If it flies IFR, and is not blocked, you can find out here, on flightaware.
astrojet120
astrojet120 0
How about metal fatigue? bad fuel, no final check?
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Exactly. A Certificate, along with statutory currency requirements, is not indicative of competence. Hence I voluntarily withdrew myself from the ranks of capable pilots quite a while back. On the other hand, did Lindbergh have an "Instrument Airplane" Certification when he crossed the Atlantic? I doubt there are many of us, no matter how current, who could pull off what he did with similar equipment. I wouldn't dare try, but then again I'm a big chicken.
JoeOgiba
Joe Ogiba 0
When they showed live video on NJ 12 News from a helicopter I seen some broken branches at the top of some tall trees a few hundred ft from I-287 and part of the wing that looks like it struck a tree lying in the road that is also a few hundred ft from I-287. It could be he clipped the tall trees before hitting the ground what looked like the southbound lanes into the medium and then the north bound lanes.
Photo links:
http://media.nj.com/star-ledger/photo/2011/12/10369917-standard.jpg
http://media.nj.com/star-ledger/photo/2011/12/10369918-standard.jpg
http://media.nj.com/star-ledger/photo/2011/12/10369915-standard.jpg
http://media.nj.com/star-ledger/photo/2011/12/10369702-standard.jpg
http://media.nj.com/star-ledger/photo/2011/12/10369921-standard.jpg
http://media.fresnobee.com/smedia/2011/12/23/12/17/580-tGEQU.St.55.jpg

He dropped from 7,300 ft to the ground in 24 seconds if you look at online Newark Radar app.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXR5aoeL9IQ
chalet
chalet 0
Doug, I am with you on this, in fact in a previous blog I suggested that perhaps the pilot was not proficient at the time of the accident, see the aircraft logged less than 20 hours since Aug. 1/2011.
wbohannon
To simply answer the question, No, they shouldn't be required to have de-icing equipment. Icing can happen at any altitude if the conditions are right. There are rules for FIKI, or "flight into known icing conditions." Every TBM model I have worked on have had inflatable air-foil de-ice boots, inflated and vacuumed by B/A. The props have electrically heated boots. The windshields have electric heat, on some models, both windshields are heated, otherwise, just the pilot's will be heated. There are no models with heated leading edges, one PT6 cant make enough hot air to make HLE's possible. There is a heat exchanger for the fuel to pull heat from the oil, but in the TBM's maintenance manual, it says there is not enough heat exchange to warm the fuel much(just because of volume), its really to help keep the oil cool.

As for the link posted by Mr. Mcleod, that polished inlet is only heated by exhaust gases exiting the exhaust stacks. While these gases are very hot, they tend to take the path of least resistance and easily exit out of the stacks, providing little heat to the lip. In my experience with the TBM700 and TBM850, which are very safe and reliable, this accident was likely caused by airframe ice build-up(speculation). If the ice build-up was concentrated around the lip, effecting inertial separator use and engine performance, I would expect there would have been some conversation with control, long before the airplane fell out of the sky, as eye witnesses reported. The MM explains the inertial separator provides a means to remove a maximum of solid particles from ambient air. So, when we start and taxi the I/S should be ON, and during FIKI, the I/S should be ON. Even if the ice was effecting the engine, the pilot would still be able to control the bird on some sort of glide ratio. Clearly something went terribly wrong in this situation. My thoughts are with this family. Rest in peace.
chalet
chalet 0
Do GA planes in the US get sprayed with anti-icing fluids prior to take off like commercial airplanes do. Whenever I fly small planes in the U.S. it is always between march and october and in the South so never had to worry about supercold wings.
Falconus
Falconus 0
If you reread my post, you will notice that I never suggested that it was the cause of this accident, and nothing I said relates carburetor ice to a PT6A. I was just giving an example of the kinds of things I have seen people come up with. Hence my point; don't speculate publicly without all the information (in other words, until the NTSB puts out a final report).
ethepilot
Eric Horton 0
130 to 160 IAS is the norm in the TBM.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
Matt, good point.

There is a fair amount of data here.
We know there was severe icing in the ~ 15,000 foot range
and we're pretty sure the pilot wasn't flying a lot.
And if the pilot wasn't flying a lot, was he hand flying
the plane in severe icing just like the airworthiness directive
directs pilots to do? The AD's are there for a reason - one of
the main reasons with regard to he icing AD is so the pilot gets
a feel of the controls as the icing builds up - and the autopilot
is taken out of the equation (via the hand flying which takes current
instrument practice because you're IMC = in the clouds) so it doesn't
put the aircraft into an uncontrollable situation if it's deactivated
OR it kicks off due to excessive trim pressures.

There are some experienced pilots here who know what they're talking
about - it's wise to discuss these issues.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
Metal fatigue unlikely, as most planes are designed to not allow something like a wing to fall off when one component fails. Bad fuel - hard to say, could have been a contributing factor, but more than likely, this was an icing problem. No final check? Please be more specific.
WigzellRM
Ralph Wigzell 0
Do you have a link?
ibock
Ian Bock 0
No no... Astrojet120. He's got some strange things to say. You were spot-on.

Ha!
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 0
If we all waited for the final NTSB report before discussing an accident, these forums would be pointless, not to mention very quiet.
ethepilot
Eric Horton 0
In the climb that is.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
I don't trust the Government to tell me everything I want to know. There are a lot of very knowledgable guys here. There are also some who are less knowledgable but we see it as on opportunity to learn. Even it turns out 731CA was knocked out of the sky by a meteor strike, the "shop talk" going on right now serves a useful purpose.

Of course the NTSB can't comment until it completes its investigation, just as a judge or jury can't comment until a verdict is reached. The rest of us, the last time I checked, are free to speculate about all sorts of things - at least in this country.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Doesn't AD 98-04-22 prohibit operations in severe icing? Listening to the tape, it sounds like the icing was pretty severe at 17.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
Autopilot is not the bad guy here. IAS mode is not a bad idea in ice, while climbing.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Then this:

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/904

Or, see if you can get the Military to train you, but don't talk to them about recalling cars or 6 year old airplanes being too old to fly during the interview, they might trick you into joining and then put you to work scraping bugs off the windshields of 55 year old B-52's.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
Give him a break, he's probably 12 years old and just needs a little guidance.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
Yes, if necessary to remove contamination, or to prevent build up of snow while waiting for departure. The fluids used on the ground do not have an affect after takeoff (okay, maybe for 30 seconds, till it all blows off).
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
Ian, but the AD says not to use it in severe icing and we
got reports of severe icing in this unfortunate situation:

<<Do not engage the autopilot.
If the autopilot is engaged, hold the control wheel firmly and disengage the autopilot.>>

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/09de59381815b33786256a65006f48f7!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-3
ibock
Ian Bock 0
No doubt you are probably correct. This is a public forum though. As you can see above, I did provide some answers to his comments. As to guidance - maybe a little ribbing will help him censor his comments, or, instead of making off-the-wall comments, he will ask questions next time.
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
I'm going to start a website for aviation enthusiasts who just want to sit quietly and wait for NTSB reports without speculating in advance about what they might say.

How much storage capacity and bandwidth should I buy? Should I create revenue primarily by selling subscriptions or seeking advertisers?
thcrozier
Tom Crozier 0
A lot of my pilot friends are pushing 90, they don't have time to wait 18 months or longer for the NTSB. They want to speculate now... This is the most interesting topic for them since Reno. I do wonder the story of the College Station crash, which was similar in nature and occurred only about 12 hours before this one; and also killed an entire young family never got "legs" in the news.
ddmc1
Doug McLeod 0
any issue with the inertial separator?

The Piper Meridian's doesn't need to be turned on!

I think you have to turn on on in the TBM but I have
400 hours in a Meridian and only 1 in a TBM for only
a demo flight.
tcaphou1
Bob Adams 0
Tom, you won't be making much revenue. God Bless America and our right of Freedom of Speech.
ibock
Ian Bock 0
Doug, I did not read the AD, sorry. I still stand by my statement about using the AP in icing conditions. If used properly, and monitored, it is safe. Of course, in this case, if it is prohibited, it should not be used.