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Boeing Reports Cracks in Wings of Undelivered Dreamliners

Submitted
Boeing said Friday that it will conduct inspections of the wings on some of its undelivered 787 Dreamliner aircraft to look for hairline cracks. The beleaguered aircraft manufacturer said that Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, which supplies wings for the Dreamliner, .... (www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com) More...

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imtxsmoke
Jeffrey Bue 2
This sounds like a manufacturing/Quality issue as opposed to a design flaw. It also sounds like they know "what" caused it and which a/c have been affected. Much to do about nothing IMHO.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
For God's Sakes man WTF are you doing on this forum?
giger2
HERMAN GIGER 1
right turn initiated =autopilot/wingleveler reached ailerun banklimits also indicates left wing exploded/got lighter than right wing , computer digital readout 0ft = transponder antenna got ripped away ,speed accelerating = sudden significient weightloss (by excess LIFT ),also loss of drag , also getting pushed fwd by the pressure waive of the flame developing bubble of explosion.
The Altitude gain is consistent with the 2 eye witness-observers m they both seen the fireball for minutes at first moving towarts them,in reality MH370 gained Altitude. Cabin must have exploded at some Altitude higher 50000 ,all humn lives froozen instantly and broken in small shrapnings
on the way down to sea surface.Comkpare Swissair DC-10 over Nova Scotia 2 sep 1989,corpuses found in water completely broken up in pieces of meat.
In this Youtube , you have to understand primary and secundary radar technique plus also the software that "filles blanks" into display video signal.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Mr. Giger: Somehow your post ended up on the wrong thread. I'll send a report.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
You realise this Malaysian aviator ahd 40K flying hours? This machine was subject to an external factor like a bomb on board or a missile strike. The 777 machine is tough and that pilot would not have benn able to rectify an explosion due to either an external missile or an internal bomb. The above scenario is impossible under command...only possible after a catastrophic violent failure. This 777 was "taken out".
giger2
HERMAN GIGER 1
thanks Donna, this is about flight MH370 .
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Compare to article about cracks found on A380s already in passenger revenue deride with airlines.

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2012/01/cracks-found-on-airbus-a380-wings/

The cracks on A380s article reads as a sales pitch for the plane, despite a much more relaxed approach that Airbus was taking with the cracks on their planes' wings. I was reported that the possible cracks in the wings would only be inspected in the routine 4-years-apart maintenance check.

Boeing gets rougher treatment for finding the defect quickly, and repairing it prior to delivery.

Seems like the press is giving substantially unequal treatment to the 2 major airliner manufacturers, and their respective products.
joelwiley
joel wiley 6
Where the squawk lead in tag has:
"The beleaguered aircraft manufacturer said ..."

the referenced article has:
"The Chicago-based aircraft manufacturer said..."
Does seem a bit of yellow journalism on somebody's part. If not the press in general, then perhaps the poster.

Poster joined 3 months ago. 149 post since then. Of the 50 checked, 1 from NPR, 49 from frequentbusinesstraverler dot com.

just sayin'
Derg
Roland Dent 2
You keep on sayin Joel. We need to know.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
I used to think that FBT was a quality outfit. But the quality of the journalism coming out of that outfit lately had been quite poor.

Was I wrong to think believe they were a quality outfit, or has their work product depreciated considerably. Don't know which, but their quality has been piss poor lately.

Anyone have any insight? I'm stumped by their constant posting of low quality articles, many with erroneous information. The frequent spelling mistake I can pardon, but gettig the facts wrong regularly is unforgivable.

I expect that some FTB folks will downgrade this post too. But that doesn't improve the quality of their journalism. OTOH I'd love to post months from now that I've noticed that FTB quality improved and that I'm not finding major errors* in their articles.

*Just a day ago FTB reported that the new hangar at Newark Liberty fits both 787 and A380. But looking up any other report shows that it was sized for 787 and A350 (plus similar sized planes such as 777, 767 that United has in their fleet). The A380's dimensions (wingspan, tail height) however would not allow it to fit through the door. So clearly, FTB flubbed again.

Sizing the hangar for the A380 would be newsworthy if it were true. Bit it wasn't. It really isn't ok for FTB to keep getting the basics of their reports just completely wrong over and over. I'm disappointed. And I don't even own any shares in their outfit.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
I took another look at their website. Greg Spira managing editor and co-founder, passed away in 2011 at the age of 44. Perhaps there has been a change in editorial oversight. The posts on FA have been coming about a dozen per week, and I suspect it is someone's job to get the exposure out there. Maybe a quantity over quality issue?
Hugh knows.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Thanks. That explains it.

But the many basic errors (but which are majorly central to the matter being reported) suggest that they have people over there who don't know much about aviation and/or who don't care or both.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
no news no job....no job no eat....
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 0
"Boeing said Friday that it will conduct inspections of the wings on some of its undelivered 787 Dreamliner aircraft to look for hairline cracks." What troubles me is the word "some". What happens to the one with cracks that wasn't among the "some".
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal -1
Seems that Boeing cares 2 hoots for concerns of intellectuals
like you
Derg
Roland Dent 0
Don't need or want "intellectuals". Boeing has them and most of them are test flight crew. On the shop floor you need people who are varying shades of practical and book based skills so one learns from the other. All about good team work with no cultural barriers. You can know every page of a 1200 A4 page manual and still not know how to do a simple task. Good companies know this very well from years of experience. That is why almost all of the top guys are ex military.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
First, I'm not an intellectual and second, Mr. Dent your comment is hurtful.
Derg
Roland Dent -1
Yeah that was my job..I used to fire people on the spot. In aviation hurt feelings are just not important. As far as intelctuals go if they made one error they were escorted out of the work place, or the area was cordoned off by tape to keep them away from the job in hand.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 3
Mr. Dent: Get control of yourself. This is a website, not a manufacturing facility. You need to work on how to be civil to people, particularly those you don't know anything about. Because Mr. Mittal for some reason unknown to me decided to apply that adjective doesn't make it so. You are rude and a bully. It would be interesting to know why you singled out those you refer to as intellectuals if they made one error - but not someone who wasn't. It may be all right in the UK to mistreat an employee, but in the states it isn't. Being ignorant and disrespectful is not all right.
Derg
Roland Dent 0
Ms Petersen it was my job to ensure my team do not leave the work place in a coffin. I did not work with Uk based engineers because they were unable to communicate effectively. Ms Peterson may I ask wht role you played in industry and what your responsibilities were?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 3
You may ask all you wish, but I feel no obligation to deal with you any further.
Derg
Roland Dent -1
Agreed I would have had you frog marched out of the work area. People with your attitude used to run away and hide in the lavatory...some of these people are now CEO's but they never forgot that lesson.
akayemm
Dear friend Roland Dent, I amsure once you must have been at the wrong end of the rod. And grew gradually. But I doubt if you grew up ?
Most of those who post comments here have gone through the similar growth system. Be it you (as claimed by you) or Donna Peterson or me or so many others.
Clearly you failed to catch the central idea of the squawk ! The failure to perform manufacturing , quality control and inspection processes. Familiarity of which you are so blatantly bragging .
If you were really so senior you would be much more polite and humble with your words and expressions which describe your attitude.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
There's a bit of pot and kettle up in there. Hope you will follow your own advice too.
akayemm
PhotoFinish, I understand your message loud and clear. For matters relating to Aviation I clearly declare my level, that of a novice or learner or layman . If I fail in that, I plead guilty.
But for matters relating to general engineering, management and Law or Lawyers and Legal System, I am definitely competent to comment as an insider. Which I am not for Aviation.
And here I rest my case.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Just because the machines use the air and not water or tarmac does not mean that they are special. Your views are very valid Mr Mittal. While I agree there is nothing quite as thrilling as leaving the ground or feeling the sheer exhiliration of a fast machine rolling around in 3D space and compressing distance with time, as engineers, our role these days is on the ground. I last piloted in 1982. You are more than competent to comment sir.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Well I was a freshman at the age of 18 Mr Mittal and my education up until then was academic with a bias on the sciences. I later attended two universities and I have to say a few of the people I met there were very surprising. I came across 30 years of teaching based on a simple translation error where a very respected academic had mistook a noun for a verb. Realising many of these people were being paid good money to perpetuate ignorance I have to agree I am always critical when an academic turns up and suggests a method that will endanger the public or wreck an expensive machine. God gave me a brain and skills which I use to HELP people not to endanger them. You are correct in saying I did not accept the seniority because I would not trade my integrity, neither would I accept nepotism. My job was to get the job done on time, on budget and on quality and with total safety.
akayemm
I wonder which set of Asians will be held responsible for this ?
Or may be the pending orders from some Asian Airlines are responsible !
ha ha
chalet
chalet 1
Dreamliner, you kidding, this is the nightmare-liner. If it is not the battery it is the cracks or something else, a new issue almost every fortnight.
banana
James Eaton 2
Totally agree, chalet. Seems this airliner was born with more than a modicum of misplaced overconfidence of what can be achieved.
Just because a method worked for the design and construction of the 777 does not mean that adopting the same method for a brand new airliner will result in success.
Many would suggest that short cuts (and too many assumptions) were taken during the design stage which are now becoming evident in the physical.
Riding the crest of a success carries a responsibility - one of which is to retain common sense.
akayemm
Dear friends chalet and James Eaton, a few months ago one of the able aviators gave a very useful and interesting observation relating to marketing policy adopted by some manufacturers, and very cleverly applied it to high value capital equipment like B787 ! And since I rose from the ladder of Marketing I found it very relevant.
And the gist of what was stated is as follows -
Some manufacturers choose to launch a product WITHOUT sufficient product research(testing) in the fond hope that they will solve problems if and as they come ! And in the process(in their opinion) save the valuable time and cost of testing !
banana
James Eaton 1
yes, totally agree with your comments Er.

Some manufacturers knowingly produce products that have incorrect specifications and rely on the user to identify the problem and seek restitution. Saves the manufacturer a lot of money, of course.

Ideally we should live in a world of "moral" capitalism, in reality "it ain't so". Look forward to the day when that precept changes - if ever.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
You must be kidding James. With legislation these days I cannot see any maker sign off a device that is knowingly unserviceable. Genuine mistakes do happen. But negligence? Nah...you are willful negligence? I can see some products are used as political pawns as were those Yuasa batteries in the 787. Yuasa were genuinely trying the best they could do. Some would argue that was not adequate or the products were not fit for purpose.
banana
James Eaton 1
hey Roland - what you say is fine in theory. But the world is not as clearly defined as you make out i.e. reality is not defined in black and white: there are shades of grey.

My best effort might not really be sufficient to meet required standards i.e. not fit for purpose even though quality control (at all levels - seller and buyer) passed the lot. Who is held responsible then? Is it the design, the manufacturer, the transporter, the fitter, the user, etc. Shades of grey can hide a mountain - a bit like annonimity is guaranteed in a city. Life is not a science - people make mistakes (sometimes deliberately if it suits their agenda [if that makes sense to a scientific mind]).

Thank goodness I am a human so acknowledge that you believe what you do and am more than happy to do so.
Derg
Roland Dent -1
Chalet...it ain't the machine..it is the people who are running the jobs and the politics behind them. 787 is the best on the market...come on Chalet..you must have been close to some of these management types....happens in every industry where money is made by machines.
chalet
chalet 2
Dent there is no politics here, itis just that Boeing rushed this thhing (don't forget brand new technology) too fast during its design and manufacturing. I don't want to say "Haste makes waste for this is not the case but you get the idea, don't you ole pal.
Derg
Roland Dent 0
Well I am not going to be coy about the 787 Chalet. The battery saga was a complete sham because some less than capable person decided a certain mickey mouse size company should make the cells. You can walk into any Walmart and buy better one made by Panasonic. We ALL know that but no one at Boing has the guts to route the corrupt system that allowed this to happen. The latest wing cracks are due to low temp assembley conditions. We ALL know that but some half baked Neanderthal MBA somehere who's Daddy is something important cannot get his head around the problem. Not the materials Chalet it's the people who are the liabilities.
chalet
chalet 2
Yeah it is about people, yeah people who design, people who build, people who run quality control and people who test the finished product. Boeing got real sloppy with the 787 and they will regret it as long as they live not only for costing zillions of dollars to the company but because the same good ole Boeing turned out from the late 60s a slew of monster homerun ater homerun, do you want me to tell you who are they, ok here it i:s the 707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767 and the 777, great technical and comercial successes, and then this.....
Derg
Roland Dent 0
Agreed. USA has become a sloppy banana republic.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Right, because the US doesn't have an effective airline regulator and among the best crash investigation teams in the world, which results in one of the best commercial airliner safety records in the world. /end sarcasm/

But if you believe that matches up with the safety record of SE Asia, guess you're entitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong.

Didn't the MH370 investigation just get more robust in the last day or two as the NTSB has had a larger role in the investigation. We've not only gotten better information, but real assets on the ground (or water and air in this case) have been redeployed to different sectors so that the plane might actually get found, rather than provide search & rescue video footage theatre.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
I agree entirely Photo. USA was once Top Dog and still has some power to get stuff done. What worries me and a heck of a lot other people is how politically the people and the constitution are being over-ridden daily.

The Senate and the House of Congress constitute the banana republic that they are intent on creating. The situation in the USA of today reminds me of the situation we had in the former USSR in 1979. Just like Russians the USA people are truxting and good people who like to help others. But Washington DC has another agenda that involves personal greed and power.

I am a product of WW2, old and done now. But this new direction the USA is taking scares the hell out of me.
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 0
Evidently two things are not being taught in schools anymore. How to use a slide rule and grip a torque wrench.
Walt53
We may need you when the power goes out! HA!
akayemm
May I write two instead of one word , ' use/grip and read ' ..... though use/grip includes 'reading ' part . But for some every thing has to be written distinctly.
;-p
akayemm
May be because in some cases both are obsolete !
Long long ago during late Sixties the US U's discontinued Post Grad. programmes in heavy current engineering considering saturation for research. Then suddenly the Toronto-New York Grid failed. Every one woke up and courses reopened.
So you never know when slide rules or the torque wrenches may find their way back and who knows in which shape !
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Torque wrenches ain't changed that much..they get too much violent use to be digitised. You don't see Stahlwille or Facom or USA makers rushing to change this technology.
akayemm
Torque wrenches ain't changed that much ! Really ?
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Well I use Newton meters and USA uses pounds per foot...some of the antiques use really quaint springs...but as far as digital ones go..I ain't seen any..as yet.
akayemm
"The cracks were apparently caused by the over tightening of fasteners used to connect the wing ribs to the shear ties on the carbon fiber composite panel" .... So says the report.
Another one is
http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=CAP/2014/03/09&PageLabel=24&EntityId=Ar02408&ViewMode=HTML

" Wing cracks found on 787 Dreamliners

New York: Boeing Co said on Friday that “hairline cracks” were discovered in the wings of about 40 787 Dreamliners that are in production, marking another setback for the company’s newest jet. ..... "

Will some one help me to understand that in this age of well developed tools and inspection systems how 'over tightening' could occur ?
And also, how could the 'cracked' members be despatched ?
Was the torque wrenches not calibrated ? Or the pre-despatch inspection not done ? And is there no joint inspection system prevailing between Boeing and the Chicago based Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ? Were they cleared for despatch without pre inspection OR without reading the inspection report ?
How the receipt section of Boeing okayed the supplies received from Mitsubishi ?
These are some of the baffling questions which need to answered by the so called experts of manufacturing process, of Quality Control and of Materials Management. All of whom must be claiming to be educated and trained at and by the best of institutions of USA / World .
chalet
chalet 2
Torque-wrenches perfectly callibrated to exert the precise foot-pound torque that is needed were invented SIXTY OR MORE YEARS AGO. It is incredible that a reputable company as Mitsubishi made such an horreonsously inaceptable mistake. REMOVE THE 40 WIGNS FROM THE ASSEMBLY LINE A MAKE NEW ONES, DAMMIT.
Derg
Roland Dent 0
Excellent question Mr Mittal. Only military trained techies these days go thru all the phases needed to be able to implement a procedure with a material that is only an alorythym on a computer print out. Thid is 16 year techie skills... the problem is...we don't make stuff anymore so we got no techies...you have them in India and China. You won that...we threw it away.
t1sby
Tim Bray 1
I wish you would type, or use better Grammar. Makes me think thou doest not knoweth what thou are speaketh about.
Derg
Roland Dent 0
Excuse me...I use the vernacular when I address the folks who matter...I can do the educated erudite rehetorical crap. There is lots of stuff I don't know. The trick is knowing that you don't know. There are a hell of a lot of people on the east side of the Atlantic that are so far up their own jacksies that they have become part of the colony of ecoli bacteria that live up there.

[This poster has been suspended.]

PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 8
You should actually read up on this issue.

It is due from a manufacturing process change at the wing manufacturer in Japan. The Japanese manufacturing workers are highly paid, and usually treated better than Anericsn workers at unionized plants.

Read a little. Learn a lot.
Derg
Roland Dent 0
more complex than that photo....787 is at the edge of what they will allow us to have...some of the so called engineers have no concept of materials....just pics on a puter screen. A 5 dgree c drp in temp can make a heck of a diff to a material stress coeficient. prolly has only a 1 degree c variable tolerance...the young guys have no concept...they never did that on a real machine in a real world.
microwalda
microwalda -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Wing cracks found on 787s in assembly

Roughly 40 Boeing 787s still in production may have cracks within shear ties of a wing rib, the company says.

Boeing is inspecting aircraft that may have the condition on three assembly lines in Everett, Washington, and North Charleston, South Carolina

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/wing-cracks-found-on-787s-in-assembly-396787/

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