Jumbo Jets Near Miss at JFK

ATC Audio

Tower:
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9114.0;attach=6112

Ground:
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9114.0;attach=6113

Credit: www.liveatc.net

Sounds more like VATUSA traffic than real life. Sir, do you have a ground plate onboard and able to read it? You repeated the instruction TWICE! Hold Short means you stop the damn plane and HOLD SHORT! How F$%^*ing stupid are you?

egyptair pilot needs to go thru training again in english

Did like the final take-off compilation on LiveATC...EgyptAir gets the dreaded phone number to call on arrival, DLH411 goes to the head of the line with a Well Done!

This could have something to do with recent FAA changes to require read back and hold short at all runway intersections. This new rule has been in effect for a while now and all pilots should be aware of it, including all foreign pilots. This Egypt Air pilot will be facing some serious actions as a result of this incursion.

EgyptAir is, of course, the infamous operator of 990, the suicide trip. So, this incident should be no surprise. They should ban the EgyptAir crew from operating in the United States for at least a year, and teach them how to read plates and perform radio operations.

John, that seems a bit extreme. You must be a journalist.

Anyways, it's nice to see a positive article about ATC's for once. All those sleeping controller reports were getting on my nerves. I wonder if there will be any redeeming value to ATC's here.

Not speaking good English is a big problem. Remember the big 747 v 747 crash in the Canary Islands. They learn a rote of expected items but cannot deal with the unexpected . To protect ourselves perhaps the FAA should examine non English speaking pilots for proficiency before they are allowed to fly into the US.

Actually, I'm an Airline Captain! :-)

FYI...he said cancel takeoff clearance, not plans.. kudos to media for screwing up again!

Casebeer the KLM 747 crash into a PanAm 747 in the Canary Islands was not caused by bad English, the investigation determined that it was entirely the fault of the dutch pilot who did not follow the instructions given by the tower. Of course the thick fog blanketing the airport was a big factor. But I agree with you and other bloggers, some of the pilots flying around the world whose mother tongue is not English are a real safety hazzard. I tune in Live ATC now and then and frankly some of the aircraft landing at JFK are extremely difficult to understand what the hell they are saying.

Maybe he didn't follow instructions because he didn't understand them. When he heard "cleared" for from the tower guy who was also in a second language, he put it into the "what I expected to hear" mode i.e. cleared for take off And this is a Dutchman where they speak pretty good English compared to some of the other countries.

I don't believe the language barrier had anything to do with it in this particular instance, though in other cases it is a problem.

Kevin, listen to the first link, above. There's a stuttering CANCEL TAKEOFF PLANS right around 0:30.

He said caancel takeoff CLEARANCE, not plans. See how the medias screwup has the public thinking he said plans?

He said caancel takeoff CLEARANCE, not plans. See how the medias screwup has the public thinking he said plans? We as controllers would never even consider saying the word" plans".

As a controller I know the phraseology and can discern that the controller said "clearance", however, the east coast accent of the tower controller avoids accenting the "R" and it does sound somewhat like "plans"(say clearance without the "r").

Exactly...my point was the media is clueless, making the general public think we do and say ridiculous things. I can hear the word plans too, but that doesn't mean that's what he said.

I agree, the media was clueless. After seeing how the media handles highly technical issues with which I am familiar, I wonder what's been convoluted in areas I'm not familiar.

Controller for 32 years and counting...thanks to the media our profession is not the proud one it once was. My own family as well as the general public think we go to work and sleep now. What a travesty.

Controller for 37 yrs...finally retired.. While the media has their issues we can't blame them for all the recent notoriety. It looks like this controller saved some lives. Nice to see something positive for a change.

Dear Kevin, airline pilot for 29 years ...welcome to the public's perception of "us" .....created by a small minority of "us" and inflated by the inept media.

Yes kudos to the controller and congrats maranis.. I agree one hundred fifty percent amello. I feel strongly public perception is directly attributable to that inept media. The perception used to be completely different.

Well put amello, thanks Kevin.

You're right. I can hear either one if I try. But if I keep both in mind when I listen, it sounds more like clearance. I wouldn't be too hard on the reporter about something like that, though. Perhaps an email to the reporter about it might even get it fixed.

What happened to the requirement to read back taxi clearance?

I'm not commenting on the story, but this week's edition of FlightAware on my system was flawed in that every link I clicked to read a story took me directly to the comments box. I don't want to comment until I've read the story, and having to scroll up to the top on every page got annoying after the third time. Please, can we be more careful with these links and get 'em right?

Why so few accidents in air traffic? Cos we do our job well...

I would be happy to email the reporter if I knew his address. Look, this is a clear case of a reporter once again not doing their research, in turn making a very professional career suffer over someone elses ineptness. So yes, I choose to be hard on the reporter. It does make a difference, this is EXACTLY the kind of journalistic mistake that can really change how the public views air traffic controllers and quite frankly, Im sick of it. Samuel, nothing has changed, the taxi clearance was read back.

Kevin, I sent in a report to the feedback form on the website indicated at the top of the article. We'll see if that results in a correction.

I think you're being a bit too hard on the reporter in this case. What research do you expect to veto his lying ears? And what damage does this innocent mistake do? The essence of the quote is the same. The story changes exactly not at all.

Thanks for your opinion Victor...I gave mine and the reasons for it. Innocent mistakes in other professions kill people. If someone is quoted incorrectly, is it still a quote? And to me it changed the story completely.

I am very picky about the airlines I fly on. Only a few and I am also a commercial pilot. Hold short means HOLD SHORT. I own my own plane and have been flying for 40 yrs. I continue my training every week with FAA and AOPA.
I always ALWAYS read back and check ANY runway AND Approach for aircraft BEFORE taking the runway. I spend the extra $$ to have Taxi Plates on my Aircraft GPS to insure I FOLLOW TAXI instructions. FAA dictates if you are unsure ASK for Taxi Instructions. For controllers, I have the highest respect for them and their work. I have worked with them over 40 years of flying and they are extremely professional and others who aren't in aviation don't appreciate their support.

The Egypt air flight crew Pilot and Co-Pilot should not be allowed to fly international flights again. Sorry for venting but EGYPT AIR was responsible for these pilots AND training.

Anyone who has flown internationally has had language issues. With the shoe on the other foot, foreign controllers can be tuff to understand for US pilots (Engrish). Also, everybody makes mistakes. The Egypt Air guys could have at least looked out the side window as they approached a runway.

And why is the call "cancel takeoff clearance"? Wouldn't "Abort takeoff" be better as it mirriors what is said in the cockpit?

Steve,
its because the controller cancels the takeoff clearance, the PILOT aborts the the takeoff. We wouldn't wanna be accused of "getting inside the cockpit" now would we?

Kevin, I know "why" technically, but if the job is to stop the aircraft asap, then the language should be intuitive. Having been there (heavy and 5 knots before rotation) it's confusing for a few precious seconds.

Steve...in that case we should just say STOP

Kevin, how 'bout "stop" for the guy on the taxiway, "abort" for the runway

I don't think we should say abort...again, because we would be accused of getting into the cockpit, as we have been before. Pilots are trained to know that cancel takeoff clearance means to abort the takeoff...it will still take a few secs for the brain to execute it.

@trennor, I think the problem is in the code of the webpage, it appears that flightaware is automatically putting the cursor in the comment box by default on page load, so when the page loads, it automatically drops you down to the bottom where the active comment box is...same thing started happening to me last week.

Kevin, doncha tell pilots to turn, climb, descend, speed up, slow down? If your mom was on the plane, wold you be concerned with the politics of the call then or those few seconds?

If I felt saying stop would save lives instead of approved phraseology I would do it in a heartbeat. FYI...I have a couple times! But it will not ever be approved phraseology, nor do I think it should be.

I'm not a pilot, but I find this conversation extremely interesting. What are "taxi plates"?

I can't speak for all of Egypt Air's crew, but, having been a passenger on Egypt Air twice, I can attest that the flight (and ground) crew seemed to have the barest knowledge of English and had an extremely difficult time relaying directions, explanations, status updates, et al. concerning our delayed departure due to the blizzard (12/09). (We shuttered as to what would have happened in an emergency.)

They are maps or diagrams of the airport layout and all taxiways, runways, etc..

Once again we see and hear the professionals, ATC and flight crews, at work.Thanks "xtrext" for those audios.

The FAA and our "so-called" government is so flawed. We need new everything. GPS which is happening slowly, Better equiped airports, better trained and more rested AT controllers, less hrs on the job. Our government cannot spend money on updating our air system, yet can waste billions in other countries.

Right on Ralph

Trennor, just hold down "Control" on a PC, or "Command" on a Mac, and the up arrow. It takes you directly to the top of the page. No scrolling required.

OMG. I landed at JFK only an hour or so before this happened. Scary to think it could have been me.

I'm glad to see that MSNBC is getting their info the the NY POST. Nothing like doing investigative reporting!

How many lives did those controllers save that day? International flights, so presumably a pretty full trip7 & A340. I could look it up and do the math but it doesn't matter, the controllers saved lives! Some of my family are controllers and I hate the bad rap they get for some crappy media reports. I've been in ZLA and watched those guys juggle, nothing but pure professionalism and talent! Thank you!

Frank M. is right. Controllers do a lot for the safety of aviation but just get a bucket of crap in return. Thank you ATC.

Reading all of this, concerning the media, reminds me of the Don Henley song, "Dirty Laundry"!

Thank you Frank and John!

Don't be scared MGV...fortunately this is rare but shows the system works!

Did anyone notice how the ground controller froze for a few seconds and did not issue instructions to MSR while others on the tower cab could be heard yelling "whoa, whoa!" or something to that effect? Maybe I just misjudged it or the recording was cut off.

This happens more than people know thank the lord we have professionals in those towers..........

After 6 years as a VATSIM controller, I know that even in the "pretend" ATC world it can get stressful, with non-compliant pilots who don't speak good English and all. I can only imagine the stress controllers must feel when there are people's lives at stake. My hat is off to those professionals!

first of all, controllers make mistakes too - so don't dislocate yourself patting yourself on your back james keck. But yes, pilots are responsible for more of these incursions for a reason... while a controller needs to learn only his airport, the pilot is responsible for EVERY airport and mistakes happen. Thankfully I haven't made this mistake yet, but statistically we all will make a mistake at some point. Lets just hope it isn't a fatal one. Egyptian air.... I could go on and on about how their ineptness led to US Air Force Personnel being forced to fly their AWACS for years because they were too stupid to read the "owners manual". Here we have people who's greatest accomplishment is hitting smaller rocks with larger rocks - flying heavies... don't get me wrong, I don't hate them .... but aviation requires a thorough use and knowledge of the english language.