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Cessna Cj4 N614SB missing after takeoff from Burke lakefront Airport in Cleveland

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Six on board, lost radar contact soon after takeoff , coast guard has been searching waters throughout the night. Few details are available (www.foxnews.com) More...

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jamescagney2000
1/10/2017 - update - Investigators are searching a debris field about the size of a football field. (100 yards long 50 yds wide) 4 main dive sites are being searched. They have found rear tail section, 1 engine, seats, front wheel, front cockpit section (roughly 8ft x 5ft) and sections of windows from the front cockpit. Human remains have almost been found and through DNA testing, determined them to be from a male. A total of 170 pieces have been recovered to date. They estimate 1-3 additional days to recover debris. They were unable to dive on Tuesday because of rough seas.The cockpit voice recorder was flown to DC, but no information has been provided as to its contents.
STLPilot2
STLPilot2 1
Thank you for providing the update. I have been looking a couple of times a day for an update. Have recordings of the tower and departure control conversations been made available?
jamescagney2000
nothing yet. I will post when available. They did disclose that the audio of the entire flight was recovered.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Someone said the Cj4 has no blackbox but does have a CVR. Hopefully, this will shed some light on this tragic accident.
STLPilot2
STLPilot2 3
First and most importantly condolences to the friends and family of the crew and passengers aboard this flight. Having followed the 92 comments so far in this dialog, several things occur to me.

Total hours and ratings don't always tell the story of a pilot's competence. I believe that the quality (type of aircraft and real world flights), frequency and currency of the time are a major factor. Many years ago I was at FlightSafety Wichita taking an initial simulator course for a Cessna 421C. My professional pilot simulator mate had some 3700 hours and had already served as a single pilot PIC for 40 or 50 hours prior to FlightSafety. He crashed three times trying to hand fly a simple IFR approach to minimums. He realized that an autopilot failure during his recent flight hours might have cost him and his corporate executive partners their lives. Yes, he had the hours and the requisite hours but most of those hours were spent as an instructor in good weather.

I have read numerous comments stated as fact that made assumptions not in evidence. Yes, I do think that people who make assertive comments ought to have the background knowledge to justify those utterances. There are, in fact, many accidents in private jets that have occurred in the past several years that had two man professional crews so to assume (even to state in no uncertain terns) that this accident would not have occurred with a second pilot aboard is absurd. Is is possible and even likely, that a safety or mentor pilot could have prevented the outcome but it is also possible that a mechanical failure of some sort led to the result.

I would like to emphasize that flying a light jet with state of the art avionics is substantially less complicated than flying a high performance pressurized turboprop. The systems are simpler and the work load reduced. This is something that I believe the FAA should address. I know for a fact that the incidence of accidents in MU2s specifically have been greatly reduced since the FAA instituted a training requirement for that airframe.

Lastly, I'd like to address the general insurance company approach of requiring some number of hours with a mentor pilot following a new type rating. I suspect that this was not required in the transition from a Mustang to a Citation since the airframes are so similar. Of course a new type rating was required and from what I see in this aircraft flight history on FlightAware, it appears that he completed that earlier in December. I would submit that it would be appropriate for insurance companies to address more than just the "type." I personally believe that the type of avionics should get more attention. For many years, the avionics were pretty consistent when going from one type of airplane to another. With the proliferation of flight systems like the Garmin 1000, Garmin 3000, Pro Line 21, etc, there is a major learning curve associated with a transition from one system to another. I believe (don't know for a fact) that this pilot was probably transitioning from a Garmin 1000 system in his Mustang to a Pro Line 21 system in the CJ4. I believe that required flight experience should include time with a mentor pilot until the new avionics package is completely intuitive to the PIC. The work load that this pilot probably experienced based on the conditions for this flight was probably very high and any hesitation could be very distracting. That did not exist in the old days when most of the avionics was consistent from one aircraft to another.

Yes, this is a fairly "simple" jet to fly. But the work load based on conditions - avionics, manual boots, alcohol windshield - was probably extremely high for someone without much time in that specific aircraft with that specific avionics package. Yes, I also wish that he had elected to stay the night but, at a minimum, we should learn from this accident.

May they Rest In Peace.
bentwing60
bentwing60 6
Don't some of you old time,high time ATP's, and anybody else here that really "gets it", wish that some of the low time guy's we keep readin about crashing, read this site? Haven't recognized a name yet in the accident reports. Thank you. In this uber rich environment, anybody can sit in the left seat, even if you have to buy the airplane! It ain't about the clubs. I have been preachin "rent a pro" in real life, as well as on this site for years. Seems to fall on deaf ears. You would think the insurance industry would get it after payin for all the execs. and families/employees. The airplanes are cheap. When "things go bump in the night", and you ain't been doin this too long, things can go badly. And I guess that's when the insurance guy says, "He had a great insurance form". And my condolences. Again.
GLHSA
GLHSA 3
Insurance industry does get it. For example, if you are new to a CJ4 (don't have a type rating in Another 525 like the pilot in this accident, the insurance policy will require pilots to fly 30-50 hours with another pilot with 525 cert. if there is a accident, insurance policy will not pay.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 3
Or more stringent training requirements? Especially for so-called certified single pilot high performance aircraft? Just asking, I'm a pro pax, not a pilot. Corp I worked for always had 2 pro's in the front seats - ALWAYS. (Except for the occasional rented Lancer or Baron flights, then yours truly had the luxury of right seating it.) And yes, you'd think the insurance companies would be spearheading such an effort... My non ATP opinion... And condolences big time to the family and friends of this incident.

[This poster has been suspended.]

bbabis
Bill Babis 3
Was yours a Chicago deliveries model with the tailgunner position?

http://jokes.conservativepapers.com/files/2013/01/Budweiser-Tail-Gunner.jpg
bentwing60
bentwing60 3
Shouldn't SR be on the "Heavy beer trucks aware" site? Just sayin. Cheers.
jamescagney2000
1/12/2017 Additional debris was recovered over the last 24 hours.
Rear Pressure Bulkhead, Rear Stabilizer bar, AReS box and Right wing.
The AReS box was sent to DC for possible analysis of the SSD card.
Additional human remains were also recovered. Roughly 250 pieces of debris
have been recovered to date.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Thanks for followups.
GLHSA
GLHSA 2
They should have a visual on main wreckage tomorrow. I wonder why it takes 7 days to get a underwater detector on site.

Recovery Operation Update #14
Thursday, January 5, 2017, 6:00 p.m.

CLEVELAND — During search and recovery efforts in the blue water grid search area the NTSB underwater locator beacon detector received multiple transmissions while deployed from the U.S. Geological Survey’s (USGS) “Muskie”. These transmissions have been plotted on the models to narrow down the search site for the Cockpit Voice Recorder to a 125 by 325-foot search area.

Weather and water conditions did not allow for divers to enter the water or sonar equipment to be used today. Waves are predicted to be two feet or less tomorrow with winds west/southwest at 10-15 miles per hour. The temperature will be 13 degrees in the morning with a high of 19 degrees later in the day. If conditions are as predicted, searches will begin at daylight.

The Muskie and the Salvage Chief (Underwater Marine Contractors) will be deployed with the drop sector sonar, a dive team who will use the underwater locator beacon detector and crews from the NTSB, Muskie, Underwater Marine Contractors and the Cleveland Division of Fire.

Multiple resources are on standby to assist as needed.
Shoreline searches will continue tomorrow.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I wonder from where the underwater detector came.
jamescagney2000
https://clecityhall.com/2017/01/02/recovery-operation-update-5/ Cleveland PD confirmed the bag found on shore was that from the CJ4. It was found roughly 5.25 miles east of The western end of the runway. Other small debris has been found but not yet verified as coming from he aircraft.
cartergflick
Carter Flick 1
Ugh I was hoping it made it to shore somewhere
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Surprised it went only five miles. The waves were 4m high and building.
jamescagney2000
Voice recorder belonging to missing plane found, rear tail section and co-pilot seat w human remains also recovered.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/oh-cuyahoga/voice-recorder-portion-of-fuselage-belonging-to-missing-plane-found-in-lake-erie
jbermo
jbermo 2
Would love to know the relative cost of a low pic time Cj4 insurance premium, especially as compared to its claims pool depletion.
jamescagney2000
$15-$50K annual depending on pilot, experience and riders
cartergflick
Carter Flick 3
Large condolences to the families of this disaster😔
180sb
Geo Johnson 4
I'm not sure why we have the NTSB, with all the expert analysis with so few facts!
I have been making my living, flying, for 56 years. It has been my observation that most accidents are not caused by one event, but a chain of events.
Gentlmen save your opinions and wait for the facts.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 9
Then there would be no need for this site. We'd all sit quiet and not dance, like at a pre 1985 concert in China...
bentwing60
bentwing60 5
Bulls eye Thrustt! The prelims. come out in days and basically say, this aircraft crashed under these circumstances. The full "NTSB" report is at least a year away or maybe 3 as posted below about a previous CJ accident. Dust in the rear view mirror. 121 and 135 operations recognize low time in type Captains. Can't say for sure in this instance, but, if the shoe fits. So if our observations inspire a low time, low time in type Captain to do what it takes to not get read about in an NTSB report, we all win. If all you care about is the airplanes, hit the non-fatal filter in the accident report list. I'm tired of reading about the "people". And I await the 2nd post from Geo Johnson in 10 years of "non participation".
allench1
allench1 1
could not agree more
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
You don't come out of the woods very often.

[This poster has been suspended.]

ToddBaldwin3
Todd Baldwin 4
Well, it was nice while it lasted. Again, I will remind everyone not to feed the trolls.
joelwiley
joel wiley 5
Trolls are one thing, Hydras another.
ToddBaldwin3
Todd Baldwin 3
Very true, and this one seems to have grown two heads.
ToddBaldwin3
Todd Baldwin 1
Well, that didn't take long.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Coincidentally, bondolover is likewise suspended. Heracles found 2 heads grew back when one of Hydra's heads was severed. Maybe FA can play the role of Iolaus and cauterize the stump.
ToddBaldwin3
Todd Baldwin 1
Nice one. We can only hope.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
As Lowell Thomas would close, "So long until tomorrow"
allench1
allench1 1
14 DAYS ON THIS SITE. YOU ARE A JOKE TO THOSE OF US THAT LIKE THRUSTT,MYSELF AND MANY OTHERS WITH REAL TIME EXPERIENCE SO GO CRAWL BACK INTO THAT HOLE U CAME OUT OF. HOW DARE YOU INSULT MEMBERS THE WAY YOU HAVE DONE.YOU WILL NOT BE HERE LONG TROLL.
pilot62
Scott Campbell 2
The trudged being they could afford to wait on the weather, but I can't say I wouldn't be over confident flying a jet like that
pilot62
Scott Campbell 2
Before making a guess remember this

The Columbus Dispatch reported that the plane was piloted by John T. Fleming, CEO at Superior Beverage Group in Columbus, according to his father.

The elder Fleming said that in addition to his son, the plane carried Fleming's wife, their two teenage sons, a neighbor and the neighbor's daughter

Tragic ......
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
The bigger question would be how was he flying a Citation Jet with a Mustang type rating!!!
GLHSA
GLHSA 2
He had a CJ4 type rating, the FAA just didn't update website yet
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
In that case, inexperience in type would be a big factor, especially in adverse conditions.
My opinion, everything else aside, would be that he should have had an experienced in type mentor for the first 100 hours or so...
kinoworks
CEO arrogance tragically inflicted on others. Single pilot, pvt pilot in 2015(!) 800 total time, fast winds gusting to 38, moderate turbulence, complicated jet even for an experienced pilot. GET A CREW OR SAFETY PILOT. Leave the ego at work.
allench1
allench1 6
either you have a crystal ball,know this man or you are just ignorant to proper decorum on this site. Remember the family members or there friends will most likely read this remark, either way you should stick to the reason this site exist which does not include a personal attack on the lives on board.
GLHSA
GLHSA 3
2015 Refers to the last update to his license, not when he first received his license.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

ionutgmicu
Ionut Micu 5
First of all, sincere condolences to all affected by this tragedy!

I am a pilot too, and have flown from that airport quite a few times. I my honest opinion, even though put the way he did, Jim Lynch may be actually right. It is a hard truth that is hard to take.

I suspect human/decision making factors first of all and I will list them just like in the pilots training textbooks:
* Physical self assessment: tired at the end of a long week/day (like Kennedy)
* High emotional charge in the group/cockpit, specially after a game
* Get there syndrome
* Dangerous personal attitude around higher multiples of 10 hours of flight (800), which lead to the next one:
* Macho attitude given his status and ownership of such equipment
* Possible panic which sets-in very fast specially when you don't have anybody to fall back on for help and other set of eyes in cockpit and to share the workload
* Possible hasty/poor planning/pre-flight?
* Did he have a contingency plan like to remain in Cleveland if needed, or getting back was a given without question?

And the facts:
* 800 hours is a low time to handle such a jet in such context, alone, without a safety pilot because:
* bad weather: snowing, high/gusty winds, low visibility (probably bare minimums in terms of IFR operatios)
* possible serious icing - could the de-icing boots handle it and were they correctly operated if such?
* reduced airplane performance due to a serious useful load onboard
* high workload alone

I am so sorry to see such tragedy; I lost a friend in similar context, he had 1200 hours. Kennedy's accident is a very close situation too.
allench1
allench1 0
Again you stated your opinion including personal derogatory statements about the pilot that is totally unnecessary. Be aware friends and family members may read ths. You would never see the NTSB use words like macho attitude, dangerous personal attitude,possible panic,etc. get a grip and leave these personal attacks in your head.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
How was he illegal???
wingbolt
wingbolt 2
Jim and Michael,

I'm not disagreeing with your post. But your argument has been around since the V-Tail Bonanza era and being characterized as a "Doctor Killer". I think the pushback might be from this being the proper forum.

Never the less competition between insurance companies seems to allow more low-time owner pilots to fly increasing complicated high performance aircraft. The insatiable demand for micro jets will only make the situation worse.

But since you decided to post your experience I have some interesting information. Just some food for thought.

Around 80% of aircraft accidents are pilot error. I can have zero information about any accident and access the cause to the pilot and be correct around 80% of the time. The odds are overwhelming in my favor. So your not going out on a limb on that assessment.

One other fact is that 100% of all accidents are caused by human error. Some people are going to disagree with that but it is well documented. It is most likely pilot error but other causes can be maintenance, manufacturing, and many others. The airplanes themselves are not dangerous, it takes a human to, in your words, "screw up, BIG time."

I have just slightly more than a passing interest in accident investigation. Another interesting statistic is that due to complacency high time pilots are not immune to being the cause of an accident. The same thing applies to mechanics. In these cases there is plenty of bad "JUJU" to go around, just try not to attract some yourself because you fall within the 80%.
Quidnon
Quidnon 1
The type was issued in in January 2015. The info on the FAA website doesn't update for recurrent training. As GLHSA said thats just the date the the license was updated with the type.
allench1
allench1 0
Jim (30,000 plus 707,727,757,747 + numerous private jets) i posted this as to your hours that you are so proud of, for what reason i do not understand, that said it appears he lacked good judgement due to weather along his initial TO path, but before you slander him as you did he could have had a mechanical issue although unlikely, most likely he iced up.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
Usually when winds hit 40kts, they close the airport. I'm going to make a wild assumption here - chances are he waved off the warnings.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Inexperience, poor weather briefing if briefed at all, poor decision making.....who knows. But to say this accident is caused by arrogance is " arrogant" itself. Complicatef jet, a CJ4 really, I don't think so!
wingbolt
wingbolt 2
I think complicated is relative. A proline 21 system with a performance database to an 800 hour pilot, I think so!
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Point taken, but what would you call an F16 driver with 600 hours experience and I'll bet that is a far more complicated set up!
30west
30west 5
H.F.......I'd call him a highly trained professional. Will he be a better pilot after his first deployment? You bet he will, based upon experience built upon an outstanding training foundation.

Training, training, training. There is no comparison to the level and quality of training received and in the sophistication of aircraft flown during military pilot training and a Part 141 flight school. There is a point where pilots from both initial pilot training groups attain similar abilities and career goals, but it isn't in the first 1,000 hours.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
30west, I flew the F-102A with TT about 350. Single seat, all weather and a belly full of missiles. 24 hour 5 minute alert and I was only 24YO. My time included some C-150/172, flight school and F-102 training. I agree with 30west that it all boils down to TRAINING. After a career with a commercial airline, I'm now a sim and class instructor at a 141 school. Let's also face the fact that there are good pilots and not so good pilots. I will use an expression I always remember. We think of our doctors as being extremely educated and proficient but 50% of medical school students graduated in the bottom half of their class. Not all doctors or pilots are top notch.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Could be me, but I think you need to read the whole thread. I responded to a comment indicating a CJ4 " was a complicated jet for an 800 hour pilot." I suggested the comparison of a 600 hour F-16 driver is a much more complicated machine and therefore harder to master. By comparison, the CJ4 is a pretty easy aircraft requiring much less ability. Interesting that we don't see military jet fighters operate/train in w/x that's 200/ 1/2 and/ or 25 knot croswinds, at night......just maybe, civilian pilots shouldn't either. You sound like you have dislike for companies like FSI and CAE.
30west
30west 2
I'm not sure how long the CJ type rating course is, two maybe three weeks. Great training for an experienced (not measured by flight hours alone) pilot. FSI teaches how to safely operate the jet and it is done very well. However, generally, for a low time pilot with no or minimal experience in high performance aircraft and in marginal wx, particular flight outcomes can be disastrous. Time will tell about this accident, we'll know when the NTSB issues its report.

No dislike for FSI at all. I've used them for three biz jet type ratings and numerous recurrent courses, some of the courses were better than others. The TEB learning center, IMO, presented the best courses in my FSI experiences.

Also, my airline supplemented its in-house sim availability on the DC9 series during peak training periods by renting FSI sim time, but not instruction by using our airline sim instructors. We never needed supplemental sim time on the Boeing & Lockheed sims.
jamescagney2000
The NTSB (investigator Tim Sorensen) is now in Cleveland with equipment (to locate the Underwater acoustic beacon on the FDR) If the beacon is working, they have a good chance of locating in the next 2-3 days, assuming the conditions of the lake don't get worse and the device in near their search grid.
jamescagney2000
FAA releases air traffic control audio in Lake Erie plane crash that killed 6

https://youtu.be/fVn53inUEgM
jamescagney2000
Grainy video of plane taking off - (it doesn't provide any new information)

http://fox8.com/2017/02/14/videos-show-plane-moments-before-crashed-into-lake-erie/
pilot62
Scott Campbell 1
Tragedy - rather
GLHSA
GLHSA 1
120 items have been recovered as of 1/2/17. However, they have not located the airplane.

During the course of search and recovery operations, Unified Command received multiple reports of debris washing ashore. Over 120 pieces of debris were recovered so far and many are consistent with what would be found on a Cessna 525 Citation.
craigcook65
Craig Cook 1
It is a horrible tragedy, and pilots naturally are eager for answers, particularly when an otherwise very safe design is involved. Opinions are okay as long as they are made with a level of expertise regarding the subject at hand. As an IFR private pilot based in Cleveland, there's one factual question that I have not seen mentioned: did the pilot get the plane deiced before takeoff? The answer to that question is ascertainable now but i am not sure if it has been asked. Certainly this plane, properly preflighted with no mechanical issues and a competent crew at the controls should have had been able to depart successfully in these conditions.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Craig Hook you pose a very good question. What was the weather at takeoff and did he have ice and not spray. This reminds me of the Air Florida crash at KDCA. Icing was to blame. This would also stand to reason that they crashed so soon after takeoff. Was there any communication with ATC? Emergency? I think it happened so fast there was no time.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
Actually, icing did play a big part, but not the kind you are thinking about. It is kind of hard to get any aircraft into the air when you incorrectly set the thrust ( as in AF ) well below take off setting. Iced over engine probes giving an incorrect EPR and a lack of cross check of the engine gauges (N1), when all the PF had to do was push the thrust levers to the limit! However, airframe icing may still play a part in this Clevelend accident.. Very sad.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 2
Highflyer1950 agreed. In the AF accident the Captain stated "OFF" when the FO read "ice protection" in the before takeoff checklist. AF just recently had been flying up north and may have never actually experienced winter weather. The CVR also revealed the Captain saying we should stay close behind the plane in front so the heat from his engines could melt any ice!!! On the roll, the FO stated that something was not right with their thrust but the Captain ignored it. If AF deiced (not sure)--were they still legal with holdover times? In my commercial career, if precip was still falling and you got to your time limit, you returned to the pad for some more type 4. As for the CJ4 accident, we don't know yet if he deiced or maybe didn't need it. If that plane sat on the ramp while the family was at the game, I am pretty sure (speculation on my part) they needed deicing. There probably was no issue at Burke with holdover time--quick taxi and takeoff. Deicing only gets you to the runway. After that, fluid blows off on the roll and you are left with the aircraft anti-icing system. I'm stating some facts for our non pilot friends on this board who may not be familiar with regulations and procedures. As stated in prior posts, we don't know until the recorder is played and analyzed and investigators talk with ATC and airport personnel and put together a timeline of events. What a terrible loss of a family. Condolences to relatives and all who knew the family.
STLPilot2
STLPilot2 1
Temperature on the ground at Burke was reported to be 33 degrees F a few minutes after takeoff. Too close to call whether or not there may have been ice on the Citation.
jamescagney2000
Maverick air is registered at address as Superior Beverage. John Fleming, is President of Superior Beverage. 3 adults and 3 children were on board. Heading back to Ohio state after attending cavs game. Winds at takeoff were 30, gusting to 39 .
dfwflyr85
dfwflyr85 1
Last night in CLE they closed the airport during 1/8sm +SN snow event. All runways were notam closed after a braking action NIL report and took almost an hour to get 24R cleaned and back in service. CLE is close enough to give you an idea of last nights weather. I would look at icing as a factor
jamescagney2000
Typically, winds are higher at Burke but weather can be completely different. Especially in early winter when lake is still warm (Burke is right on the lake)while KCLE is southwest. I live 10 mins south of KCLE, last night, we had a snow squall come through that was near zero visibility for 20 mins. But Burke missed the snow completely. Other then a strong west wind, Burke wasn't bad last night.
dfwflyr85
dfwflyr85 1
I wasn't thinking Burke but more of low level atmospheric conditions in the vicinity to the north.
jamescagney2000
Appears that this plane had two prior incidents. LIghtning strike in 2013 and bird strike in Aug 2016. it was in Wichita this Spring for interior rehab. List of options and photos is below. It was sold in Oct 2016

http://www.whitneyjet.com/files/119198767.pdf
jbermo
jbermo 0
Only 720 days of part time experience from jennys to jets? What took him so long to crash?
GLHSA
GLHSA 2
Do you understand The updated date is not the date one's license started
bbabis
Bill Babis 0
First, prayers and condolences to the families involved. Clearly a very poor night to fly but that may be only an additional factor. The last few rimes I've flown IFR out of Burke the clearance has been turn north and maintain 2000'. The CJ4 is a pretty hot jet especially in cold conditions and it looks like it popped very quickly to 3000' where the pilot pushed over into a rapid descent hoping to ovoid a bust and became overwhelmed with the situation possibly while changing radios and operating deicing systems at the same time. Possibly a passenger in the right seat and certainly TAWS/GPROX warnings added to distractions. This jet may have had a FDR/CVR which would help the NTSB tremendously in solving this tragedy.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Thx, Bill. This is why we have this site. One will never know what discussions here might play an important part in some pilot's life in the future. Yes, we have 30k wonders out there and 100 hour pilots as well, it's called a process.

[This poster has been suspended.]

allench1
allench1 3
Cut out the sarcasm and keep to your projections and thoughts. Challenging someone over your own beliefs is unnecessary. Get your ego in check FH.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
Not at all!
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Where did he say that???
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
He didn't F.H. is projecting.
GLHSA
GLHSA 1
No FDR on CJ4
bbabis
Bill Babis 4
Some do. Not sure if this s/n did. Sure would help. Happy New Years and safe travels to all.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Upon more reflection, the autopilot may have been a factor in this accident also. Upon departure, climbing at 4000+ fpm, engaging the autopilot 1000 feet or less below selected alt would guarantee an overshoot, which happened . Punching it off and pointing the nose down at 4000 fpm before reengaging 1000 feet or less above selected alt would guarantee another overshoot if it reengaged at all. Not much time to figure it all out with night, turbulence, and other distractions thrown in. As i said, a challenging departure for any pilot.
julianjim
jim garrity 0
How about all the "NTSB"wanna-be's, just pray for the family&friend's they lost.and leave the rest to the "real" NTSB"!Unless of course, YOU were there? Never jump to conclusions on anything, unless you are part of the investigation! Sorry, I was a Pilot for 28yrs., and a Reserve Sheriff Sgt. for 20yrs., that taught me a lot!!
mikebeam
mikebeam 0
Incidents – Lightning Strike (2013) – Replaced RH aileron and RH elevator
Bird Strike (8/2016) To be repaired at Cessna

" to be repaired " ( wonder if it was actually done )
GLHSA
GLHSA 1
That would have been fixed in pre-buy in October
STLPilot2
STLPilot2 0
Don't know the exact weather conditions at departure but, from yesterday's weather report and the fact that the first portion of flight appeared normal, it seems that ice may have been a factor. I wonder if the plane was outside or in a hanger prior to departure and if there was any rain/ice reported in the area to go with the high winds. Not good in this kind of winter weather that the flight crew may be new to this aircraft and possibly new to the type.
jamescagney2000
http://w1.weather.gov/obhistory/KBKL.html
winds were W29G36 temp 33, dew 29
BKN013 BKN022 OVC032

new to aircraft certainly didn't help.

Spatially disoriented?
recedivist15
recedivist15 2
Yeah, or a bird strike. Seagulls are really prevalent this time of year.
robbreid
robbreid 5
Your not going to find birds two miles out over Lake Ontario in freezing weather at 23:00 hours. There are two previous C
robbreid
robbreid 3
Wasn't finished - two previous Cj's - fatal - single pilot - icing - N102PT whose accident report took 3 years - and N711BX earlier this year. Obviously could be anything - but I'd consider icing most likely.
hharney
Herb Harney 2
Lake Erie
recedivist15
recedivist15 1
Thanks for the L. Erie upgrade, not all lakes and conditions are created equal. The NOTAMS that evening reported birds in vicinity including seagulls & ducks, I never said icing wasn't/couldn't be factor. It will be resolved when they drag the plane up after the city gets it's stuff together for salvage. Why this guy didn't deice before leaving (though that hasn't been reported either) is beyond me. Keeping in mind an old adage: There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are NO old, bold pilots. Most probably, should have had second crew aboard, if only just to discuss positions on conditions.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
Keep in mind, frequently the NOTAMS for birds remain up forever in places where birds are prevalent. It was not specific to that night, but every night (and day). I would be surprised to encounter birds 2 miles out at sea, at 2300, with winds so high, but then again, there is nothing that says I can't be surprised.
gearup328
Peter Steitz 1
Grew up in Cleveland and winters can be really bad. Geese migrate but seagulls don't. I doubt they would be flying in the weather that was reported and at that time of night. Even birds have learned some common sense.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
I don't know where you live, but up here in the frozen nord, ducks, geese and gulls don't fly at night, let alone in 30-50kt winds.
ffrcobra1
ffrcobra1 1
The NTSB seems to think N102PT went down due to spatial disorientation, not icing.
While high winds probably would keep large seabirds grounded, dark winter nights alone will not. A pilot for the company I worked for was lucky to escape uninjured when a bird went through the center of a Cessna 310R windshield. The hole was roughly the size of a bowling ball. The incident occurred in the winter and well after dark. I believe it was between 10pm and midnight and near Erie,PA. The pilot's name I still remember....Dan McCoy.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
Of course none of us know, but my first educated guess (which is all this is), was spacial disorientation. A fast plane, a quick level off, high winds, IMC, single pilot, late night after an event...speculation, but unfortunately not uncommon nor a far stretch.
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Gulls generally don't like flying in wind above 28. Given the location, time, and weather, I think bird strike a less likely cause.
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 2
Given time of day, and weather - no birds were airborne that hadn't just been startled out of their roost/raft
cemcopilot
cemcopilot 1
judging from the last ADS-B 3700+ FPM descent that may be the case
w7psk
Ricky Scott 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

4 lost in small plane crash

Four people have been found dead in a wreckage of a plane crash that lost contact with air traffic control in the northern Hood Canal area.

RIP

http://mynorthwest.com/500404/search-on-for-plane-missing-in-hood-canal-area/
RRKen
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

4 dead in southern Illinois small plane crash

Authorities in southern Illinois say four people died New Year's Eve after a single-engine plane crashed in a wooded area.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/midwest/ct-southern-illinois-small-plane-crash-20170101-story.html

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