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  • 47

Airbus buys just over 50% of Bombardier CSeries division

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Buy now it's official, Airbus buys over 50% of the Series and is going to shift some assembly to Mobile, Alabama plant. Tough luck Boeing! (www.financialexpress.com) More...

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Scjemail44
Sam Johnson 21
It is time that we realize we are in an international market and have been since the Japanese started giving us cars that we wanted not what Detroit attempted to force us to buy. We must learn to compete in that world market. It is not easy and will not be easy in the future but we cannot continue the way we have been. It is just not working.
SmokedChops
SmokedChops 10
My guess is there will be some uncomfortably heated meetings in Chicago. "Why did we not consider this?"
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 1
GREED...XENOPHOBIA AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST STUPIDITY.
ysfsim
Ant Miraa -1
hardly xenophobia
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 0
Do you have any kind of idea what the term xenophobia means? It is essentially how Trump won the Presidency of the United States. He has openly stated America must come first to the exclusion of all other parties. What do you call erecting a fence along the Southern Boarder,so why would your so called" friends" in Canada get pasted with a 300% tarrif. You were so afraid that Bombardier you did everything in your power to prevent the C-Series. Irrational fear of others and supporting paranoia is a form of xenophobia. It is a psychotic disorder which is
clearly a serious problem. However, I seriously doubt you understand the meaning of "big words". What on earth possessed Boeing and Embraer to try and destroy Bombardier? America is no longer trusted to be a reliable ally of Canada. We are NOT your friends. Boeing and President Trump must realize that Canada among others is finally fed-up with the bullying, lying and cheating. America does not honour its treaties with Canada and the other members of the G-20. We must seriously press the United States not to persist with this action. If we are talking about Boeing price fixing their aircraft do not have uniform pricing. For example the RCAF bought its 5th C-17 for more than a 25 million dollars over what Britain and Australia paid for theirs. That's discrimination which is a strong characteristic of Boeing's corruption of the world's aviation marketplace. America is not a nation in the conventional sense, but operates like a business run by a megalomaniac and his private army.

n914wa
Mike Boote 14
One word comes to mind. Checkmate.
nasdisco
Chris B 7
If Boeing thought pushing this issue was a way to take over Bombardier, clearly they were wrong.
Ravioliollie
John Kilcher 11
Hah, Trump is trumped yet again! As for Boeing, what goes around comes around.
kamaole
kamaole 3
Precisely.
patpylot
patrick baker 21
what a delicious end run around the inexplicably obtuse boeing attempt to slow down or stop the c series wonder-bird. Boeing could not make a case on the merits of the plane, so tried, and today seems to have failed to prevent the c series from flying in America. I did not see this ploy coming, so the surprise is tasty.
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 17
Delta had to have known this dal was in the works when they said they would not pay the tariffs the CSeries was supposed to be subject to. I'm surprised everyone kept a lid on it.
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 0
I would suspect that high level discussions have intensified this month with the Airbus announcement. Leaders in all firms were probably forwarned if they let the cat otta the bag the offending party would be immediately terminated - no questions. You are finished in this profession.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
The word out of Toulouse is

nous, les francophones, devons rester ensemble ou nous allons sûrement nous accrocher séparément
mhstone1
mhstone1 4
touche'
kenoraeagle
DAVID MCKIE 6
Love it. Now I hope the RCAF starts looking at European built interceptors.
fredwyse
fred wyse 3
Never assume blindly that any Executive Team possesses the wisdom to lead a company to victory. Kodak and Polaroid helped invent --and then perfected-- digital megapixel photography. And they buried it. Those decisions cost the good workers hundreds of thousands of jobs. ibid.
notmanyifany
notmanyifany 3
Boeing has old and unhappy history after buying DHC in 1986, losing a bunch of money on the venture, then selling to Bombardier in 1992. Looks like they've now rubbed salt in to their own wounds with an own goal!

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/23/business/company-news-bombardier-agrees-to-buy-de-havilland-from-boeing.html
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 12
Airbus just kicked Boeing and the US Government where the sun doesn't shine, and it looks great!
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 5
Commonly referred to as the lower hatch at the end of the digestive system.
yr2012
matt jensen 6
Oooh, love that sound of Boeing's board hittin the floor
mhstone1
mhstone1 1
On the other hand, US gains jobs at the Airbus plant which frankly, may mean the US government will make more in tax revenue than they would have in duties. This could actually make more sense to the US government.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
The number of tax revenue jobs gained would never come close to what the tariffs would have brought in..that and, if the tariffs had stuck, Bombardier could/probably would have pulled out of the US all together, killing jobs and tax revenue..this isn't what the US Government was looking at.. I'm betting they would hope Bombardier Aerospace collapses and Boeing moves in for a takeover kill..If you think the Canadian people would put up with that after what Boeing did, think again.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

rapidwolve
rapidwolve 11
Tariff the bejesus out of them for what?? If placing tariff's on products coming into the US because they weren't fully "Made in America" is your answer (which it seems to be from recent posts), you best start looking in the US's own backyard..automotive wiring harness's (among other things) made in China, components made in Europe, engines made in Europe..ie oh look, Boeing uses Rolls engines that aren't "Made In America" better slap a huge tariff on them..
Ravioliollie
John Kilcher 4
Merely bias as Boeing wanted to mimic the american military and rule the airline production world. Capitalistic Hegemony.
joelwiley
joel wiley 6
Try looking at the source for components for the F-35 upon which we supposedly will be betting our national defense. How many electronic sub-components came from the other side of the International Date Line?
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 5
The F-35 is DEAD IN CANADA
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 9
Oh I know joel..there is no such thing, anymore, as "Made In America" and a whole lot of people got to start seeing that...and Boeing did not.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

mfejfar1
m f 9
51% of the C series was already made in America before this announcement. So you're free to fly on it I suppose.

The 320 line in Alabama is made by Americans so that's good too.

Embraer sources 53% of their aircraft from the US, so you're also golden there.

The Chinese ARJ21 is basically an MD-95, American design and tooling with General Electric engines.

All aircraft are multinational, which is why trade wars, and statements like yours, are short sighted.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 6
Your "American craft" isn't even "Made in America"...it's "Assembled in America"..so get your head out of the perverbial clouds...that must mean that Airbus, Embraer and Bombardier are "American Craft" because they too are "Assembled In America".
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 3
You are an idiot of an incomprehensible magnitude.
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 7
Not directed at m f.
mfejfar1
m f 5
Ravioliollie
John Kilcher 3
I recall reading back in the late '80's and I can't recall just how this occurred, but, vaguely, for Boeing to get into aircraft manufacturing in China, a deal was made in that China now makes the majority of high speed ball bearings used in the powerful jet engines prevalent in today's aerospace world.
n9341c
n9341c -2
The punitive tariffs imposed by the US has absolutely NOTHING to do with "not Made in America". Read and understand before responding you dolt. This is about a government subsidized enterprise price dumping its products on the biggest market on the planet.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
Excuse me?..perhaps you should read INTO other folks posts, who I was replying to, before responding and calling people names...here are a pair of glasses so you can read the post I was replying to!!.....HTH do you or anyone else at Boeing know how much Delta paid..I don't see you standing on that high horse of yours spewing off about Boeing's $64 Bil in subsidies they have received or their "dumping" of those 737's at $22 mil to "block" Airbus..
Perhaps you should also look up the meaning of the word subsidy and the meaning of "investment into a partnership"..HUGE difference.
RRKen
Kenneth Schmidt 8
The only changes we will see is a lack of competition as there would be only one economical source of aircraft in the U.S. if as you suggest "tariff the be-jesus out of them".

This situation only exists because one company (Boeing) got the Government to levy high and unreasonable tariffs against an other company (Bombardier). A company that has no product to compete with Bombardier in the 100 seat market.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 5
http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/opinion-airbus-sends-a-thank-you-card-to-donald-trump-and-boeing
firsq
Yvon Dionne 7
Didn't see this coming WOW
joelwiley
joel wiley 7
The plot thickens...
TorontoJeff
Jeff Phipps 11
Would love to be a fly on the wall in Boeing's boardroom the next few days. Tried to kill BBD CSeries and just sent her into the arms of your arch rival. If Airbus is smart they will leverage the program to make a CS500 too and concentrate on a better A321 to head off Boeing's MoM initiative. I still hope Cnada cancels the Super Hornet order for good measure!
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 7
The Superhornet deal is gone. Canada refuses to negotiate or even speak with a Boeing rep. The government was looking at some clapped-out Aussie F-18's. That's just delusional because you will blow your own budget just keeping the first generation F-18s airworthy.
Spend the money on a quality fighter you can actually build in Canada. The next fighter we buy should be new yet proven in combat. Personally I am voting Typhoon. The problem is that they all have assets and defects. The trick is finding the right aircraft for a large multi-role mission.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 5
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardier-sells-majority-stake-in-c-series-to-airbus/article36610340/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 5
Here's a newer text in French:

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/201710/16/01-5140218-airbus-sallie-a-bombardier-pour-la-c-series.php
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 5
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbus-to-buy-majority-stake-in-bombardier-cseries-program-1.3634867
paviation07
sam kuminecz 2
wouldn't surprise me if Boeing starts partnering with EMBRAER on a future project, they already helped with the KC-390 and EMBRAER helped with engine technology with the 737 MAX.
Tolipa
Tom Lipa 2
If you study history, hearken back to the '50s and the CF-105 Arrow. This was an advanced aircraft that many felt threatened the US (Boeing) aviation industry even though Avro was unable to sell the Arrow to any foreign government. Then Boeing, through its contacts in the US military, convinced the Canadian government to scrap its Arrow project and buy the Boeing "Bomark" missile. The Diefenbaker government terminated the Arrow project, destroyed the line and the tooling, and ordered the flying prototypes destroyed. In that one brilliant move, the Canadian aerospace industry was destroyed - overnight. Many of the engineers were then recruited to the US Space program and moved to Florida. As a bit of trivia, look at the cockpit design of the Arrow, and compare it to the cockpit design of the SR-71, and you will see where the Canadian aerospace industry went.
canuck44
canuck44 3
Opening up production in AL will also solve some of Bombardier's production problems. With a second line, delivery times will be shortened which in turn will help sales. Delta and JetBlue to start, but look for this to be a popular aircraft in China where the government has mandated a hub and spoke configuration on all airlines to ensure smaller markets are served. This will be huge and Boeing has nothing to compete whereas Airbus now has a complete single aisle line from the Bombardier Regional Jets and Q-400 to the A321. While the former are not part of the package, one will feed off the other.
mfejfar1
m f 5
Opening production in AL will not solve any of Bombardier's production problems.

Their recent delays were due to quality control at Zodiac and slow production rate of GTF engines from P&W. The benefit of a second line won't be realized until the supply chain catches up.

What will make an impact is Airbus' ability to negotiate better deals with suppliers and offer support and expertise to possibly speed up delivery of those supplies.
patpylot
patrick baker 1
boeing truly overstepped, over looked and over reacted. Boeing also lacked, since the demise of the Mc Donell douglas/boeing 717 an airframe in this class, so see the goof they made by not scoffing up bombardier just to fill the hole in their product line,
ed9sal
Ed Sal 1
Canada should (re)start production of cutting-edge military aircraft with the same gusto as during the development of the Avro Arrow. This time around, 'though, no meddling or bullying from the Americans should be allowed to interfere. Canadian politicians who subvert the operation, Diefenbaker-style, should be held to treason since it involves national security. Alas, the existing people in charge are unfit . . .
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 2
I certainly think you are spot on with Diefunblunder. Building a high performance aircraft can bankrupt a small nation. I admire your confidence in our technology. However, it's not that easy. The Americans spent close to a trillion dollars by developing the F-22 and the F-35 Lightning ll. The Air Force wants a new ICBM Program. It's so expensive the joke is that they should hire the Chinese to design and operate the
system for the US. Now they need another trillion to build a better bomber. The US Navy wants to spend trillions on a new surface and sub-service fleet. It is so expensive to replace the Trident platform that two companies merged in Groton Connecticut where the "boomers" are produced. European nations enter into joint technology agreements like the British, Germans and the Italians did recently and nearly bankrupted the project from cost overruns in the process. Canada doesn't possess the capital or essential technologies in order to produce a world beater. Orenda Engines of Malton,Ontario was the last facility that manufactured the forerunner of the J-79 that went on to power F-4's and the F-104's. Now you have the Russians.They are generally pretty good at stealing foreign designs. As are the Chinese. It's remarkable that all their newer fighters look like the designs were stolen from Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics and the list goes on. Sadly the Arrow was cancelled because of the excessive requirements the RCAF wanted like internally stored air-to-air missiles....getting the idea.This is the late 1950's and no one else on earth could beat that airplane. This scared the heck out of USAF and their insane bomber program run by the lunatic Gen.Curtis Lemay. America talked Canada out of building this Mach 2.5 fighter because this moron drank the "kool-aid" then threw about 25,000 Canadian's out of work, that day broke my fathers heart. America immediately naturalized these engineers. Take a look at the Delta series of fighters built with good old Canadian, ahem, American know-how. Now look at a picture of the Arrow...tell me that the Delta winged fighters the USAF rushed into production weren't lousy knock-offs from the Canadian Avro Arrow Fighter Program. The CIA sold us the useless Bomarc Missiles and the even more useless Voodoo that was prone to going into unrecoverable pitch-up accidents in most flight envelopes. I have spoken to the first Canadian who flew the Voodoo CF-101, his comments were less than flattering. In the end America got what it wanted. A passive and a subservient neighbour who will buy all the military garbage they don't use and sell it to the DUMB Canadian's. Look at the expense Bombardier went through to see this project through to completion, it nearly destroyed the company. We simply cannot afford to pay for a new all Canadian Fighter. That dream died when Diefunblunder killed the Arrow....no thanks to the CIA who stole our best minds in a typical brain drain. NASA, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, Republic, Bell, General Electric, IBM, Litton, Raytheon and General Dynamics stole our very best minds.I will never forgive America's previous or current behaviour and yet we see it again with Boeing, however, Airbus got the goose that layed the golden egg. Boeing you can take that email message down to all Canadians and stick it in the lower hatches of your collective digestive systems! YES AMERICA WE'RE REALLY PISSED THIS TIME, NO MORE! You are NOT a FRIEND, you're trade practices are dishonourable. You are no longer trusted because you violate the terms of all of your treaties. Why should anyone deal with you anymore. If you can't win you bend the rules like Boeing just tried to do. Eventually no one else on earth will deal with you. Again sorry for the length.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Not a bad write-up Randall..a few key notes thou...The main reason the Arrow was crushed is because Diefenblunder (great name btw) sold out to the US...Avro Canada could take titanium and make an origami swan with it at their Toronto area facilities..the US companies could take titanium, and make a square box with it...see where this went? Orenda Engines is still around to this day as it was bought by Magellan Aerospace and became Magellan Repair, Overhaul and Industrial.
As for Canadian firms getting together and designing and fabricating a world class fighter, I think it can be done and not cost trillions of dollars. Remember that the US loves throwing money around hand over fist (look at how much they threw at the F-35 and still had a troubled craft)
As for the US stealing away a great number of our best aircraft minds, they thot they did, but not all of them.
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 1
rapidwolve I certainly appreciate your excellent contribution to this "string".
I really like the points you raise and thanks for the outstanding contribution
about Orenda. I also appreciate the outstanding commentary in the Squawks you bring to this forum. Nicely Done! RK.

23allkimm
Randall Kimm 1
Hi rapidwolve, my cause for concern regarding the building of a home grown
multi-role mission profile. Our biggest problem is building a power plant that can withstand many strikes by the enemy. Israel immediately removes all of the pre-installed junk by Boeing. They rebuild it with their electronics and computers, they essentially have a skeleton of the airframe. Next, Israel is forced to buy engines from the US, we would be in a similar situation and believe me because the Americans have parts for export we would be burned by them for dumping the Boeing aircraft program.
The Swedish Air Force nearly went under developing the high performance multi-role Gripen. I also remember that they lost at least 6 aircraft and several highly trained test pilots in the process. I dislike this design because it has been plagued with lots of setbacks. It's a nice looking fighter. I dislike it because it has had no combat experience. The Swedish Defense Department has a liason with NATO. Their role is to defend Sweden and that's all they will do. The Swedish parent company of the Gripen has no alliance with Western Europe. That's why we need the Rafael or Typhoon because we will gain support if they build a new facility in Canada to assemble fighter aircraft.Additionally, we might just get a free trade deal with the EU instead of the Americans. We will have partial access to the factory and technology of Airbus.This cannot but be a huge break for Bombardier. I actually believe that the CS-500 will be made. The Rafale or Typhoon are Canada's to sieze. Both have their merits and flaws. But both have successfully engaged Quadafi and were among the first to pummel ISIS first. I like the Typhoon to be the next fighter in the Air Force. Our current fleet of F-18's are basically held together with duct tape, crazy glue and hay bailing wire to keep the whole mess from falling apart. Canadian pilots deserve the equipment necessary for safe operations. We cannot uphold our military commitments. That is the problem with our government. These politicians dither and argue as our Air Force and Navy are essentially stranded in a state of being "combat inefective".
Apologies again for the length.
astro4000
Alex Szkabarnicki 1
It hasn't been approved by the feds yet... or at least until somebody gets paid off under the table. There goes more Canadian jobs to the USA...
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
Why are more Canadian jobs going to the US?..Mirabel isn't closing and the "assembly line" in AL is just that..no fabrication, just assembly for the US market.
topgunnh
Peter McGrath 1
Maybe I'm missing something, but Airbus (a French company) buys a stake in Bombardier (a Canadian company) and why would you think the "Feds" (U.S.) have to approve it?
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -3
The tariff worked and AL is laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe BA should move to AL or a neighbor state.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 9
A country that resorts to protectionism will always be poorer in the end. As the USA has such a huge economy it will be slower to happen, but this is where it's going to.
n9341c
n9341c -2
No, actually, a country with a government that subsidizes a private businesses then allows that business to PRICE DUMP on the biggest market in the world will be poorer in the end. Oh Canada, please stick to manufacturing hockey gear. You are sadly inept elsewhere.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
NOTHING was subsidized you blathering idiot...and HTH do you know what the final sale price is to Delta???...PRICE DUMP is what Boeing did for United and those 737's they sold them at $22 mil a shot, not $84 mil a shot!..there is a huge difference between investment and subsidy and any loans, not investments, to Bombardier ARE NOT interest free, which subsidies are...HINT BOEING got slapped by WTO for getting over $800 million in FREE SUBSIDIES from Washington state..and that was just in 1 year. READ replies to your other posts and stop insulting folks like a school yard dumbass!!!
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 1
You are an idiot. I suppose you think we live in igloos and get around on our trusty Bombardier Snowmobiles. You are a typical of the American ignorance about Canada. It is absolutely phenomenal. Your idiotic statement proved my point Your knowledge of our peoples and indigenous industries is appalling. What country flew the first jet powered Avro passenger airliner to New York ? If you guessed correctly. N9341c clearly like most poorly Americans know very little if not zero information about Canada.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
He forgot something else while standing on his porcelain throne..China now has the biggest market.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -6
A country that has a leader/congress that puts the country first over their or their party's re-election will also do better. Hopefully we are getting there.
wopri
Wolfgang Prigge 4
Remember Nero playing the fiddle?
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 5
I dont know where you get the idea the tariff worked?...It costs Boeing, and now the US Dept Of Commerce, more in the long run for a triff that should have never been...do we see countries placing a tariff on Boeing jets coming into their countries because of the over $64 Billion in subsidies Boeing has received in the past 15 yrs? NO
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -7
BA wasn't going to sell them planes anyhow. But the taxpayers got something. I've heard the long run bs all my life.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 6
What are you yammering on about?...if Bombardier (I don't know who the H you are calling BA) had still been stiffed with those tariff's (actually Delta would have and refused) Bombardier could have pulled up stakes in the US and said adiaos..that's a whole wack of jobs gone and a whole lot of empty buildings..and for what?...Greed and stupidity...perhaps an international committee should be called to investigate the subsidies Boeing received(s)..then both Boeing and the US Dept of Commerce would both have mud on their faces!
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -3
BA is boeings stock symbol.
Your entitled to your opinion.
The long term is Now. I've watched jobs and maufacturing disappear for 50 years. Time to quit doing the same thing and expect a different result.
So I'm ok with change. If your not that's ok with me.
mfejfar1
m f 7
The US got very lucky it worked out the way it did. This is the best case scenario that was orchestrated by Bombardier, Airbus and possibly Delta.

This brings jobs and money to Alabama, but how many will be laid off at Boeing when they lose MAX orders and intl. government contracts? They're playing with fire and just got burned. It's especially ironic that it was Boeing's lobbying that allowed them to replace thousands of union jobs with non-union workers in South Carolina, and now Airbus is using those same loose laws to do this.

"The long term is Now" - makes no sense.

You seem to think manufacturing jobs are the definition of success in an economy. It's not the 50's anymore, the world is changing away from human manufacturing thanks to automation and AI, and it sounds like you're not okay with that.
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 5
Do you think it might have been smarter to let things be instead of getting into a lather over tarrifs from the great promoter of the concept behind free enterprise...America wants open markets for...her products only.
mfejfar1
m f 4
Lol yea it's pretty ironic isn't it.

As for letting things be, that's a good question. It's hard to say if Airbus would have made this transaction regardless of the tariffs, but I believe they would have, maybe not this soon but eventually.

The decision to open a line in AL certainly wasn't in the books prior to this though. So in that sense it's a win for them.

Bombardier made a tough, smart play here. It's not easy giving up control of your flagship product. Mad respect.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -3
You will probably live to see how important manufacturing (human or automated) is when world wide supply chains break down which is almost inevitable. Look how crazy it gets just when Mother Nature throws a hardball.
Everyone looks at the future differently. Worrying about a few airliners brand names means little. They can all be parked again in a heartbeat.
In the mean time I'm going flying today and enjoy the view and freedom.
mfejfar1
m f 6
I must not have been clear. I never meant to say manufacturing wasn't important to the world. It's the manufacturing JOBS that are growing fewer and articially propping them up is a bad idea. Let automation take them and put those resources into finding better jobs. In the mean time we need to work on solving the real possibility of running out of jobs for everyone.

I have no clue what your talking about with the inevitable breakdown of worldwide supply chains. Are you implying they are going to collapse and we'll be incapable of importing goods? If that ever happens then something much worse has already occurred.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -3
That is my point sir. At some point any supply chain can be curtailed for a variety of reasons. If your basic economy is totally dependent on a supply chain things get bad fast. The world is not one big happy family and never will be.
I think we have beat this thread to death. Lol
mfejfar1
m f 5
You don't understand how supply chains work. They don't rely on one source for each step. That's the reason the would DOESN'T come to a screeching halt when massive natural disasters and wars occur. What you said is the opposite of reality.
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 1
Rapidwolve, save your comments on this one. Showing early signs of brain death. Incoherent statements and general yammering and unheard of acronyms seal the deal on this defective unit.
larryzee
Larry Zimmerman -4
Does this mean the CSeries will feature automated flight controls by Airbus?

If so, I'd rather drive.
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 0
This has been one of the best "string'" this year . Nicely done Wolfgang!
23allkimm
Randall Kimm 0
Clearly Sir, you are an IDIOT.

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