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Squawks & HeadlinesAmericans and Australians Believe they have found MH370

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Americans and Australians Believe they have found MH370

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After 2 weeks, plus calculations of final location from satecom pings, followed by a satellite search of area has found 2 distinct pieces of potential MH370 debris, and now sorties of a US P-8 and an Aussie P-3. A live abcnews report minutes ago from onboard the P-8, relays that the crew picked up significant radar hits and have taken photos to be analyzed once back. Australian ships are heading out. This is the most promising prospect in finding the missing plane. (www.usatoday.com) More...

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mdagnesi
Mike Dagnesi 6
These days instead of the black box, why can't the info be streamed in real time to land based computers? The information would be available when ever it was needed.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
As PhotoFinish already answered, it can. It is expensive, due to bandwidth requirements, and most airlines simply won't wish to incur such extra expense with little return on investment. (This info is easy to Google).

Much data is already transmitted live, when the airline opts for the service. Devices that could be considered "mini-FDRs", called QAR for Quick Access recorder, are used by many airlines. They store a lot of info about flights, they are usually downloaded by Maintenance, and the data analyzed as part of an airline's On-Going Maintenance Procedure. (We call the QAR a "snitch", because it will also record airspeed excursions, such as flap over-speeds, etc).

Recall the Air France flight 447 A330 in the Atlantic, several years ago. The Air France flight operations/maintenance departments received a lot of systems alarms and info then, because they opted for such services.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That's technologically possible. There are also lots of good reasons to do so.

But Malyasia didn't even pay for a thin pipe of airplane info. Now here we go suggesting that they and all other airlines should pay for a thick pipe of plane data to be sent back continuously, rather than intermittently.

In the modern world, movies and other live video are streamed and broadband Internet are piped directy to planes jetting across the world via satellite. A little bit of plane data would be small by comparison to all those data streams populating emails, websites, videos and audio connections to laptops, tablets and phones.

Still someone has to pay for the airlines' data streams. They'll use those precious bits of satellites bandwidth, which isn't free.

Ant that doesn't even touch the question of the pilot (or hijacker) turning off the system. No matter how much data is being transferred normally, if you want the system in place in order to get information during an unusual incident, but it gets turned off; then the whole effort to implement such a system was in vain and a complete waste of time.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 2
Well considering Malaysia Airlines have lost a $261 million dollar plane, have to pay for search and rescue/retrieval efforts and no doubt million dollar law suits into the billions, I'd say that type of live streaming is probably worth it. Pay this end, save that end.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Ella it wouldn't have saved the acft but it might reduce the "locate", time however, if it was a mechanical failure & the acft "went in" then the search would have been over a long time ago as the on board equip would have been working to help locate the acft & most likely the crew would have had time to make a distress call...unless it was sudden & catastrophic, or at the very least the black boxes would have helped searches locate the acft on land or water & it really wouldn't reduce the "liability" though the cost for SAR ops which could be a lot less. This is all presuming it went down near it's intended flight path & not thousands of miles away.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I'm ignorant of the ins and outs of that issue, but wouldn't it have insurance to cover these particular circumstances?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
Insurance doesn't cover passengers choosing to avoid the airline in large numbers, resulting in catastrophic financial performance, and the bankruptcy, failure, and/or end of the airline.

PanAm explosion over Lockerbie resulted from the actions of elements external to the airline. Yet the incident did impact bookings for the airline. It made a bad situation worse, resulting in the loss of a pioneer of the skies.

If an incident can take out a legend like PanAm, taking out Malaysia Airlines would certainly be within the scope of the possible. Especially given the extremely bad decision made years before the incident, during the incident, and after the incident during the search and investigation.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I hadn't even considered all of that. OMG
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
That's what I was getting at, the search and retrieval effort. Currently, this would be costing millions to not only Malaysia but China and Australia. Considering the nature of flight, as safe as it is, not having live streaming is ridiculous.
I say the same for Airline companies cutting corners on anything to do with maintenance and safety. Not scrimping on safety pays dividends when you can keep your 50 odd $260 million dollar planes in the air and prevent law suits, bad publicity and perhaps bankruptcy.
ko25701
ko25701 1
Its simple, make the system not able to be turned off in the cockpit. Sure it would still have a circuit breaker someplace but inaccessible during flight.
ricko1
Rick Beekman 2
I agree Bob. Also being lied too by the Hierarchy of our nation and others as well. The Media and Government treats us like Idiots thinking we' ll never catch on...Good Luck with that.
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 2
All the tech improvements in the world won't protect against a dedicated pilot bent on mass murder or suicide. We should be able to check out the pilots before flying and I won't fly any Islam based airline anymore. See how Malaysia is protecting enquiries into its pilots and possible suicide by withholding and distorting information. Islam must be protected at all cost.
calles
Carl Ring 2
What about suggested flight into southern route? How many AP settings and when to reach 43S,90E as from first jump off course?
Should the plane have descended to 4500 ft,the range would have been considerably shorter, say 20-25%. Kuala to Beijing route is 2800 miles. Kuala via jump bend to 43S, 90E would be 3000 miles, which means maybe just about? Would it then be possible to reach?
There is a lot of debris floating around in the oceans and in that area there is a lot gathering. I am a sea captain and see a lot of this shit. Looking at Tomnod elsewhere, I saw plenty of white stuff floating. Why no red, yellow and green things? White plasic covering material often blow off ships and this spreads out to portray a big chunk of white. - Because most was probably waves. Check Tomnod and you see.
Does anyone of you think a 777 wing would float some time? Ask Boeing.
narit01
Ian Narita 2
A question.

What happens when an aircraft reaches the last set waypoint on the flight director/auto pilot? (I am unsure the exact description or word)
Will the aircraft continue on the last heading or will the system disconnect?

Thx IGN
annellandfrank
John Taylor 3
Suggest you check in Capt Duggin....he would know!
I'm a USAF Retired F-4 (PHANTOM II)fighter pilot....I know aviation...but not those magnificant Boeing wide-body heavies. I always wanted to fly one! My guess is that whether or not the system disconnects.....the last "command " heading will prevail!!
calles
Carl Ring 2
I flew one in the 80-ies. we were 4 onboard and almost no fuel. From Bonaire to Curacao to fuel it and back. The power on that empty plane allowed us to play quite a bit and I want to tell you- the thing can be a jet powered swallow. We checked air speed and raised...! And dove...No one saw us... Heaven can wait.
WithnailANDi
WithnailANDi 1
I've always wanted to fly a fighter jet. Maybe if I luck out in the reincarnation raffle, I'll be born a guy next time. Meantime, I'll just have a crush on you. 8-)
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 2
If you mean, when the AutoPilot is engaged and in LNAV and tracking the route in the FMC? In that situation if you reach the end of the route, and no waypoints are programmed in, the A/P will simply hold the heading after passing the last waypoint.
calles
Carl Ring 1
In the event of a pilots management, - yes , you can put in a number of waypoints and then let go. Just like on any AP. With the last one, I guess the plane just moves on after the last waypoint setting.
How much is standard fuel reserve? Here we see that the plane flew about 3000 and a bit more miles and the intended trip was 2800. I am a sailing ship captain and seldom have the worries.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
QUOTE: "How much is standard fuel reserve?"

In addition to the estimate of fuel to reach destination, then it is an amount to complete an instrument approach, and then go-around. The fuel to reach your alternate airport, along with (minimum) 30 minutes at normal holding airspeed at 1,500 feet above the alternate airport elevation.

These are bare minimums, and most operators "pad" that.
angelo162
Dale Angelo 2
Rick, the problem is, is that more than 50 percent of the population are idiots and they believe what ever the government of officials feed them.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 2
Touché.......9/11 is a classic example.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Dale...your comment puts you on one side of your figure or the other. I believe half of what I read & none of what I hear. Where did you get the 50% figure from....hope it wasn't the media. Also I doubt that you did a poll of 350,000,000 people in the U.S. to reach that figure. If you agree with Rick re: the "lies" by the govt & hierarchy of this or other nations....could you please cite some specific examples & not generalize keeping it within the framework of this particular squawk. I presume you & Rick are talking about the investigation of MH370....if not then this would not be the appropriate venue to vent one's feelings about our or other govts. You have the privilege to voice your opinion but it would be nice to have facts to back things up with.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 0
EGADS I'd love to know where you people find these statistics (not to mention the category, i.e., idiots.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Rick...i presume your comment is in regards to the search for MH370....what lies are the hierarchy of our nation & other nations perpetrating...please be specific.
welchnh
Bob Welch 4
Oh, I am so fed up with the endless speculation and the wasted time in reporting that this unfortunate incident has consumed. We will find out [maybe] what happened if the plane is located [maybe].

The comments supporting ADS-B and how helpful this technology would have been was simply a misdirection. If the transponder was on, both location and pressure altitude would have been reported. ADS-B wouldn't have added much more for simply tracking the aircraft.

Transponders have always had On/ Off switches and ADS-B capable transponders are no exception. Want to redesign the entire fleet to prevent them being switched off (or powered off at the breaker)? Realize that the horse is already out of the barn.
lbjack
lbjack 2
Don't be ridiculous. That ADS-B can be switched off with the Transponder they're integral to is part of the point. Installing one small, self-powered, inaccessible, always-on (when flying) ADS-B in each plane is not "redesigning the entire fleet". For reasons given, it's superior to radar.

You're "so fed up with the speculation, etc.," so when someone offers a constructive solution, you blow it away. Get off your high horse.
btweston
btweston 2
They found two "objects" floating in the ocean. This is not a constructive solution. At this point, it is nothing. It is speculation. Get off whatever horse you're on.
WithnailANDi
WithnailANDi 1
Look, if everyone keeps getting off their horses, then we'll have missing horses to worry about on top of everything else. How about everyone stay on their horses and stop being horses' asses instead?
preacher1
preacher1 1
NOT being able to turn off something is BS and a safety hazard in itself. The procedure in any electrical fire out of most QRH's(Quick reference handbook for those non aviators that suggest a turn off)is to disconnecting the power source, whether it's a simple turn off, or pulling a circuit breaker/bus to completely isolate a circuit, and this is what most pilot's would do anyway without having to look at the QRH.
preacher1
preacher1 2
In most cases, alternate airports are preprogrammed into the FMS as required and never seen or used. Most senior pilots , whether on AP or not, know pretty much where they are at any given moment in the flight, and if an event did occur that required a diversion, it would be a real simple matter to call one up, punch the select & enter buttons and be done with it. Knowing that was handled, you could devote full time to handling the event. Using the training mode for most pilots of aviate, navigate and communicate, it is evident that an event was happening in which they were trying to stabilize the plane and get it to the ground, and it was just not important in that light to tell somebody what was happening.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Preacher....if it was an emergency of such a nature that they didn't have time to communicate then it most likely would have been something catastrophic which also means they weren't successful in resolving the problem or they would have declared an emergency subsequent to regaining control of the acft or resolving the problem. I find it hard to believe that they had such an incident on board then flew thousands of miles off their intended flight path for hours without notifying someone. If the transponder was working @ the time then they could have 'SQUAWKED" 7500, 7600, OR 7700...which would have gotten someones attn...but they didn't do that. The fact remains that someone did notice what happened when they lost the acft on radar after the last transmission which seemed calm & normal. If something catastrophic occurred then the acft remains would most likely have been found along their original route of flight & not thousands of miles away. Aviate....one pilot flies the acft & the other works on the problem, navigate...to the nearest available runway that can accommodate an acft of it's size, communicate....which they didn't do. The comm button to talk to someone is on the yoke where their hands would have been & it would have been very easy to push the button & communicate even during the emergency....
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Such a scenario may have happened.

But that explanation alone doesn't account for changes in heading after that initial near about face.

Either the pilots were killed or incapacitated by an evolving threat and were not able to change direction. In that case the plane would be expected to continue straight out into the middle of the Indian Ocean.

Or the pilots were alive and well, controlling the plane and directing wither up the Strait of Malacca or down toward the South Pole.

But if dead pilots weren't changing the headings, a workable theory needs to explain the apparent contradiction.
preacher1
preacher1 1
That is a hole in that theory, but if the event was catastrophic to get the pilots, it could have compromised the AP at some point. The other thing is, that it could have went straight on and all the satellites be totally confused. If the South Indian Ocean is correct, the one thing that has not been addressed that I have heard is this: We have all heard how far out from Pert that the search area is. We have all heard about the Ocean current drift. We have all heard that the satellite images are 3-4 days old. Is that drift factor being factored in when these search teams are being sent out?
SteveDietrich
As long as we are tossing theories into the lake

Some portion of the load of lithium batteries catch fire

In the cockpit it smells like an electrical fire or it shorted out one of the main bus .

Pilot pushes nearest airport and makes the turn (either hand flying or on ap)

fire continues to grow. In desperation the pilots depressurize the airplane and climb to 40,0000+ in an effort to snuff out the fire. Later they dive to 10,000 feet to try to get oxygen for the pax as the pax supply is exhausted
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
And if pilots were struggling with the plane for over an hour, there certainly would've been 5 seconds to issue a 'Mayday' or 'Pan Pan'. No way to believe that there wouldn't be 5 seconds available during an incident that played over an hour's timeframe. (If there were functioning radios or sat phones or any of the redundant technologies were functioning an available, how could no message of any kind, if issues had come up with the plane.)

Not saying, it's not possible. It's just so convoluted that a convoluted explanation would be needed for even the possibility of such a scenario to exist.

Shoot any time you're ready with an explanation.

Given some of the other alternatives, a simple catastrophic mechanical failure would be a relief. But wishing it so, doesn't make it so.

There would be no excuse for not putting the receiving airport on alert for a high risk landing. And if conditions were so bad, that they were unable to communicate with and land at the diversion airport, how did they turn the plane for up to an additional hour.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
B777 uses Ni-Cads. Nickel cadmium. Not nearly as volatile as Li-Po, or lithium polymer.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Steve if they had an electrical fire because of the batteries then there would have been time to communicate. They wouldn't have wasted time climbing to 40 or 45K with a fire on board that they could have extinguished @ 35k if possible. I don't recall that the 777 has had the type of battery problem like the 787 has had. The crew would have turned to the nearest available runway. possibly descended but certainly would have called someone & declared an emergency either via radio or a very specific "squawk" code entered into the transponder. They still would have been found along the original flight path or the reciprocal back to their departure airport which apparently would have been the closest place to land. They certainly would have advised someone that they were going to "ditch" if that were the case but the acft has "apparantly" been found many thousands of miles off any normal route of flight they were on or would have taken to get the acft on the ground asap.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I would hope that anyone involved in the search understands current drift. In the AF447, after otgers' years of trying, the successful team found the airplane in only 2 weeks (while using sound oceanographic methods of analysis). Would somebody has learned from others' previous mistakes.

And if there were an electrical fire that was bad enough to incapacitate, it would bd likely to Burma through the plane and interrupt its' continued flight. And we wouldn't have gotten up to an 8-hour flight worth of pings.

I highly doubt that the plane could continue to fly straight toward the satellite receiving the pings, without it being clear that the distance to the satellite was getting shorter. Note that the last ping acts were all further from the satellite than each previous ping an hour earlier.

They could be slightly off on the calibration of distance, and get the heading slightly wrong. But getting closer would be the exact opposite of the reported getting further, as observed by the pings traveling further and taking longer to travel from satellite to plane and back.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
if the acft continued flying for approx another 6 hrs & if the debris in the Indian ocean is in fact MH370 then that rules out a catastrophic event for the most part....keeping in mind that no debris was found along it's original flight path. If there was a rapid decompression, with the thought in mind that the acft flew for another 6hrs then the crew would have had time to don the 02 masks. If the crew lost consciousness the acft would have continued on it's original flight plan/path until fuel exhaustion. All indications are that the acft made controlled turns indicating either the FMS/NAV was reprogrammed or there was someone manipulating the controls of the acft.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I would not disagree with an FMS reprogram, BUT, RAPID DECROMPRESSION is not the only thing that would cause a catastrophic event. As I have told others, there is a theory out there on everything and noone will know the truth until it is found, if ever, and only then if the FDR is recovered.
preacher1
preacher1 1
They had lithium in the cargo hold
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Won't you please try to help me understand why it's all right for you to speculate when you've gotten after several others for that very thing? That's just not right.
preacher1
preacher1 1
It will all be interesting until the plane is found, if ever, then raised. Until then, I think about every theory and scenario has been offered and I am not going to worry about it anymore. NASCAR is coming on and I am about to attack my recliner and get outa here. LOL
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
This was a controlled event from what the facts & info tell us so far.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Still seems like an unexplainable quandary. Enjoy your race, and come back to this with a fresh mind whenever you're ready.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I am not speculating. When you speculate, with out facts, others take what is said as fact & misstate it to others & isn't any thing more than "rumor" . What I have stated is done so based on the available information not conjecture without info. Do you not understand that. I am responding to others scenarios with questions & info that hopefully will get them into thinking about speculating without facts & to use the info that is available. Why do you think the families of the passengers are so upset. Many of these "speculative conclusions" wouldn't be made if people would look @ the available info/facts to base their hypothesis on. When this is all said & done we'll see how many of these different scenarios will be correct & how many people will have enough fortitude to stand up & admit they were wrong.

Here are some facts:


fact...the acft made a turn to the left almost on a reciprocal heading,
fact...the transponder stopped working,
fact...atc noticed the transponder not working & lost the"blip" on their radar leaving them in the dark as to what happened,
fact...the transponder stopped working after the last transmission which seemed normal, fact...the acft continued flying on a new heading for another 6 or so hrs,
fact...the acft has not been heard from nor positively found & it can be presumed to have run out of fuel but did not land & most likely ditched according to the latest info from satellite tracking of the "pings".
fact....satellite data indicates the last "ping" was heard sometime between 8:11 a.m. & 9:19 a.m.
fact.... the "pings" from the satellite data indicate the acft was heading in a southerly direction over the southern Indian Ocean where fuel exhaustion would have occurred at the same time the last ping was heard.

Non fact...there has been no evidence to indicate a fire, terrorist act or explosive decompression. Though with the circumstances @ hand one can rightfully presume, with good probablility, that the acft was hijacked but it's not known by whom.
So...are these enough facts & sufficient info to base a more intellectual reason, using process of elimination to understand what didn't happen & what did happen.

fact....the acft did not make a turn on it's own accord. It had to be programmed to turn to a new heading or manually manipulated.
fact...an uncontrolled acft not on auto pilot will eventually enter an uncontrolled attitude, possibly enter a spiral, or just descend straight ahead either because of fuel exhaustion or winds etc , but most likely would continue somewhat in the direction of the last heading.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
A raging cargo fire (with lithium batteries as the source) in the hold that is extensive enough to disable all communications systems and possibly some control systems would not be likely to lead to the flight continuing for an additional 7 hours to one of the furthest corners of the world.

Previous flights resulting from cargo hold lithium battery fires were in flight usually for only minutes (a range of about 6-20 minutes) until the plane would crash with loss of control into the ground or water, with a fire still raging inside the plane.

I would tend to look elsewhere in a flight that lasted so many hours.

I wouldn't discount that decompression AD that pertained to many other 777 (but not the 777-200ER). Such a structural failure near the antennas for the communication systems could rapidly decompress the plane and knocked out communications simultaneously.

That would be be consist with a rapid drop and turn toward alternate airport.

Hopefully, they can recover the data recorder soon to help figure out way actually happened.
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
<sarcasm>
Is that a fact?
</sarcasm>
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
best. use. of. sarcasm. font. all. week.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
prove me wrong
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
prove you right
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
if it wasn't controlled, in some manner, then that's the most uncontrolled controlled flight I have ever seen.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That's still just speculation. It may be speculation informed by some facts. But for now, until there's proof, it's still speculation.

And even if it were controlled flight, it does't tell us who might've been at the controls, or in control. Nor whether man or machine.

Using. Your. Strict. Criteria.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
i'll concur with that....
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
One fact:
spec·u·late verb \ˈspe-kyə-ˌlāt\ : to think about something and make guesses about it : to form ideas or theories about something usually when there are many things not known about it
Merriam Webster at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/speculate

The fact here is that particular dictionary defined the word that way. You may disagree with the definition, but the factually, that is what the book said.

You stated you don't speculate, yet in the next sentence, you speculate what others (may) take something as fact.
You lay out 7 tiems as 'fact'. #1, left turn and reciprocal bearing are speculation based on interpretation of certain data- you are taking that as fact when you are stating a belief.
#4 flight time is speculative, not fact. #5 aircraft has not been positively found- that is a fact. Presumed to have run out of fuel is a speculation- likely, but also it could have terminated flight w/ fuel aboard. Most likely ditched- speculation (to me, ditching is an active intervention process by onboard persons- speculative but unlikely occurance).
#7 satellite data indicate southerly direction- estimation (speculation) based on data- not a fact in itelf.
"Non fact...there has been no evidence to indicate...." That no evidence has come to light is a fact in itelf, a category subject to change with new data.

Your "fact...an uncontrolled acft not on auto pilot will eventually enter an uncontrolled..." is a statement of likely outcome in probability theory.

I speculate, rather than stating as fact, that you have difficulty differentiating among observable fact, speculation, and personal beliefs.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
not personal beliefs personal experience. Try it in the air some time & see what happens. You have your opinions & I have my facts. We're just beating a dead horse here & to continue in this discussion is a lesson in futility. We'll see what the evidence bears out.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Walt - "Stand up and admit they were wrong" ? This isn't a contest. There's no one upsmanship going on unless perhaps you feel a need to be right. Now, as to you insisting you aren't speculating, go back and read what you wrote - almost every single sentence began with "if" - if the acft continued flying; if there was rapid decompression; if the crew lost consciousness - everything you're talking about is speculation. And obviously in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. But to deny you're speculating is folly.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I have presented facts & asked questions which people are avoiding. Be that as it may there will be many people's theories proved wrong...sorry that may be speculating....but all the different theories & speculation can't be right. You certainly could think it's a contest with all the different opinions about what happened to the acft.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
As you said above we will see what the evidence bears out.
A valid theory not only fits the existing data but is also falsifiable. Recovery of a single serialized part will eliminate some of the theories floating about. Likewise to a bunch of flights of fancy.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
now that i'll agree with...I'm sure to the shock of many.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Even more critical would be to have all electronics in areas protected by automatic fire suppression equipment.

I'm not convinced that a circuit breaker would've made much difference to burning ELT in an ETOPS plane at altitude over the ocean or on a polar route. Automatic fire suppression would make a difference.

Choose your fight accordingly.
OrrinWells
Orrin Wells 1
what about the ETL if the plane crashed it would also ping I month of batt power the plane was hijacked
mtpiper
mtpiper 0
What happens when the self-powered, always-on, inaccessible unit, or its power supply malfunction and overheat? The battery problem on the 787 ended up being redesign of the entire fleet.
Systems on aircraft have to be accessible for human intervention in the event of a malfunction.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
Or certainly make sure that any electronic or battery equipment is in an area protected by automatic fire suppression equipment unlike the Honeywell ELT that caught fire on that Ethopian plane.

The fleets may already need a redesign anyway, even without taking into consideration the always on issue. So might as well make sure redesign keeps ELTs and ADB-B transmission always on/ or activated.
mtpiper
mtpiper 2
True! Yes, some sort of heat/fire suppression needs to be in place. I'm all for always-on.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
they'll probably have a CB that could be pulled in the event of an electrical event.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci -1
Bob...well stated. I couldn't agree more. I should ask that anyone with hard, factual evidence about the fate of this acft please raise your hand & stand up......waiting.....hmm no one...not even one.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Agreed up to a point. Sometimes, sitting around a table tossing around ideas is what leads to the answer.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
The ideas about what happened to MH370 need to be based on fact not conjecture. I don't have a problem with sitting around & brainstorming however you need to have as many facts & as much info as possible on the table to run a theory otherwise it's useless. No evidence of a catastrophic event was detected by radar or satellite or ground sensors. Radar indicated the acft turned 180 degs I believe, the last radio transmission prior to losing radar contact did not indicate any kind of escalating problem mechanically with the acft, or a problem with the cabin crew or passengers. The last transmission from the acft appeared normal & supposedly was made by the co-pilot. There was no "emergency" call by the crew to indicate anything wrong subsequent to the last transmission & the acft continued flying until fuel exhaustion. So if the acft continued flying until fuel exhaustion then that pretty much rules out an explosive decompression. the crew would have had time to don their o2 masks & make a mayday call. Any event that allowed time to react would have allowed the crew to notify atc. I doubt that the acft would have made a 180 deg turn on it's own as some have hypothesized. When a new heading is given to the crew it's done usually by changing the heading knob or manually by the crew.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
The only incontrovertible facts so far are that MH370 departed from Kuala Lumpar and did not land in Beijing. That is the limit to hard, factual evidence. The 'last transmission' is assumed to be from that aircraft. An aircraft appears to have turned left.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Hence, all good reasons for discussing theories aimed at directing the search and finding answers. You ask that anyone with hard, factual evidence stand up - and there is no one that we know of. Therefore, the only thing left is to theorize and work toward an answer. If we wait for someone with "hard, factual evidence" the investigation will come to a screeching halt.
preacher1
preacher1 1
You are correct in your statement about the turn being made manually, BUT, the time frame is where you are off as far as time goes. Much has been made of the sign off and all is OK. WITHIN 1 SECOND AFTER THAT TRANSMISSION WAS MADE, THINGS COULD HAVE WENT STRAIGHT TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET. The heading of the turn lined up to an alternate airport, which would have been required to be in the FMS anyway; whatever the event was, overcame the crew after the turn was made and there we went, and have lost a week or better in the process because of the bungling of the keystone cops in Malaysia trying to run the investigation.
preacher1
preacher1 2
yep, and that left turn seems to be pretty well set. All these "tamper proof and always on" scenarios seem to neglect the fact the one "always on item" may be where the problem that needs to be turned off and/or isolated. At FL350, there is no one but the pilot to handle it and in an electrical event, the first thing in a QRH tells the flight crew to start dropping power to isolate the problem, which would kill ACARS and transponder, among other things. On that same vein, the pilot training of aviate, navigate, then communicate kicks in and depending upon the severity of the event, talking is in last place on a pilot's mind while they are trying to stabilize a situation and get a plane on the ground, in the best shape possible.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
However the people throwing out thoughts, ideas, conjecture & theories are not the people involved in the search but mostly armchair quarter backs as is always the case when something like this occurs even if the acft has been found. People want to give their expert advice as to what caused an incident or accident before the experts & investigators have even gotten to the scene or have begun their investigation. How many people on this blog are involved in the search process? Otherwise all one is doing is giving an opinion of what they think happened. Let's let all the experts & people involved in the search do their jobs & report back. I have seen nothing in the way of news articles that state there has been any factual & verified evidence that any debris has been associated with MH370, but I have seen reports on this blog that state the debris of the acft has been found & verified.
MrTommy
MrTommy 2
That would be the "facts" as we're fed, or allowed to know. I'm sure there are some "facts" out there that we're just not privy to. Having said that, in this age of leaks and one-upsmanship, it's hard to believe something hasn't leaked by now.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Good point about disclosed facts. At this point, the next 'fact' is likely to be an airplane flight, whether it is found floating off Perth or on some air lot in Whatever-stan.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Sorry, airplane part, not airplane flight.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
You may have meant airplane part. But another flight near Perth or Whatever-stan would certainly be newsworthy.

In fact, some people have that very theory as their preferred explanation of what happened to MH370, until such time as ANY evidence of the plane actually crashing is ever found.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
So you're saying we shouldn't even discuss the event. Not gonna happen.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
no don't put words in my mouth...I never said the topic/event should not be discussed...I'm saying the event should be discussed with common sense & consideration with the facts in mind rather than conjecture, speculation & theories & opinions without facts to back things up. Remember there are probably people who have been directly affected by this that are reading news articles & maybe even this blog that have been lead to believe something that wasn't true because someone had to be the first to "report" misinformation before the facts verified it. This can have a definite effect on their psyche. A pro pilot who puts out a story about what he thinks happened...ie...terrorists involved....can have a deep & lasting effect on the families of the victims. He has absolutely no proof that what he proposed as "his" scenario is what happened...again due to lack of facts.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I'm sorry if you think I was trying to put words in your mouth...I was just responding to when you talked about people giving their "expert" advice. You said "let's let all the experts and people involved in the search do their jobs & report back". Of course, who wouldn't agree with that. But I'm not so sure anyone here believes they are giving expert advice, merely their thoughts about what they think are possibilities. I don't believe anyone is deluded into thinking their comments are going to be considered by the people actually involved in the search, nor, do I imagine they want them to be. It's merely a discussion. It's a topic that interests and concerns all of us.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I understand what you are saying however @ this point it has gone far beyond a topic of interest that concerns all of us. It has gone to the point of people, some professional, giving their theories of "terrorists" possibly being involved, which I doubt, but that same theory can give rise to an idea that the terrorists would be happy to entertain. They were just given a new idea. The few facts available are being discarded in light of one's own postulated theory about what happened. When you read the facts you find out there are very few, with some seemingly contradictory. We may all be surprised when & if the facts come out re: what actually happened. As I said before it will be interesting to see what the percentage of theories are that will be backed up by the "facts".
timfountain
Tim Fountain 1
Yes, we should discuss, known, proven facts. Not toss ideas around.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
Most folks who are contributing here won't be participating in any of the search and rescue missions related to the missing MH370 plane anytime soon.

But the way many deal with the situation of this missing plane with such little information available, is to handicap the theories floating around and to figure out which theories are compatible with the few bits of info that do surface occasionally, no pun intended.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
remember one thing....we probably don't have all the info that there is to have to come up with the best theory. We don't know what if any info has been withheld for whatever reason. Photos of objects taken by satellite by China or Australia have not been shown to verify the objects are debris from the acft....but it has been stated that they were from the acft...so now many families are grieving more so because of misinformation. People have said on this blog that the acft has been found but I can't find that report anywhere on the news media or internet. Just asking that we be careful with what is said & let the people involved in the search do their best. I would believe half of what I read & none of what I hear...or is it the other way around.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
That people are discussing the facts and trying to make sense of the facts is not a problem.

The problem is that the facts keep changing.

In part it is because the journalists and others report facts without basis in truth, and then report new facts that contradict earlier facts. In part it is because government officials have given out information that is than contracted later by information they or others put out. The Malaysians are among the worst offenders in Thai respect during this incident.

If people weren't asking questions, and looking for any scrap of information under every rock, we might get stuck with a story that the Malaysians may hav tried to spin for their own interest.

Open information on the whole is better than restricted information. Anyone who doesn't agree can purchase a flight to China, North Korea, Iran, Russia, or some other state that believes in controlling their society by trying to control the flow of information.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
what you say is true, in part, the exception being that a lot of people are giving their scenario of what happened minus the facts...it's their own conjecture. None of the reports that have come out have indicated a terrorist action or a malfunction such as a decompression with the acft but yet we have a supposedly pro-pilot who has given his story of what he thinks happened related to a terrorist act which now gives the enemy a new idea & people on this blog are eating it up. By the way sometimes restricted info is necessary & I'm not talking about a dictatorial regime where the gov't censors all info but sometimes in an investigation it is necessary to hold some info back for legitimate reasons. Also your comment about "controlling society" is not what is being discussed/meant as far as withholding info goes. Sometimes open info can be propaganda without you knowing or could lead to someone being accused or hurt...so to make your statement about someone who disagrees with you on that & can buy a tkt to said destinations is totally uncalled for. I have worked in Law Enforcement & I currently fly search & rescue missions locally & there are times when information needs to be withheld...ie...to notify next of kin or to not compromise an investigation.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
People who want to participate in discussion will participate in discussions, no matter what others who don't to, may write. Those who don't want to participate don't have to. They can mosey along with or without the door striking'em where the sun don't shine.

Part of the discussion needs to be a seoaration of fact from falsely reported fiction. Certainly.

But we shouldn't ve afraid of using the available facts to determine the most plausible theories. Though I do caution anyone from getting too stuck on any one theory without corroboration.

But let's hear what people think. And let's have others analyze those ideas and see where they fit and don't fit facts as known and as may be revealed in the future.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
That's the problem you don't have the facts of the on going SAR operation so how can you sort fact from fiction. I agree some info has changed however as I said before people are not using fact in a lot of the discussion they are basing their theory on info the "don't" have...in other words they want to give their opinion of what happened with the very little bit of info or fact available. If you have ever been involved in an SAR then you know how vital precise & correct info needs to be & who gets the info both to & from the SAR team whether airborne or ground. How can people on this site give their synopsis of what happened to the flight when even the investigators & search teams don't know.
timfountain
Tim Fountain 1
No, all we have left and in fact ever had was and is a painstakingly long search for the real answer, by professionals who unfortunately have done this all before. Conjecture is not going to lead to anything useful, it a higher form of mental masturbation. I do wish you would just stop playing to the peanut gallery.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
well if the latest info about the possibility of wreckage turns out to be true as to where it's @....then that was a heck of a "miss" to the alternate airport...about 6 hrs flying time & thousands of miles away. Let's let the investigators investigate & report. The acft continued flying for approx. 6 hrs. By the way let's be nice to the "keystone" cops...regardless of what one may think we should comment with some dignity & courtesy. I doubt that anyone on this blog has been part of this investigation or has been privy to any info or knows factually what's going on. Could you or any of us be doing a better job. Sure we can always learn how to improve SAR but this particular situation seems to have some extraordinary pieces to it outside the normal or routine SAR operation. Remoteness for one, distance, different search areas, it all has to be covered. If the investigators had a signal to home into this probably would have been resolved many days ago so they are doing the best they can with what they have. They can't leave any stone unturned.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I agree...
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Photo...I read the article & it lends a lot of credence to my point. Here you have a supposed airline captain who is "throwing" out his own scenario WITHOUT fact to back it up. Sounds like the guy that gave the same scenario about "terrorists" being involved. He has absolutely no facts to back it up & let me present something here....if in fact the latest debris in the Indian Ocean is actually that of MH370...do you honestly think that the crew would not have reported the fire & not have landed ASAP....instead of taking the acft on a jaunt thousands of miles away from it's originally intended flight path....& to say the acft turned & flew this new path on it's own is absurd. Put on your thinking cap.
preacher1
preacher1 4
This "supposed Airline Captain" is not an airline captain but a
135 Captain(nearly retired the 2nd time)I have 20000+ hours starting as FE on a 707 in 1973 elevating into the left seat thru 23 years on a 757, and now well qualified on a 767 and CRJ200. That said and listed simply because having been on this site since 2007, I haven't seen your name crop up on here posting until this accident and throwing out all kinds of scenarios yourself. You do this giving no personal qualifications and twice thru your thread you have mentioned Explosive decompression as basically the only thing that could cause a catastrophic event. To me and a lot of folks on this site, that shows your total inexperience. Past that I will simply say that you seem to be tossing out some scenarios and that is your privilege, BUT, your name calling and running others down for offering the same thing does not bode well with some.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Nice homily preacher, very restrained.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I have not called anyone "names", nor running others down & if you feel i have then report it & let the webmaster determine if there is validty to your accusations.I have expressed no scenarios nor have I speculated but have responded trying to get people to understand the damage they do when they come up with something as their own hypothesis of what happened but have no facts to back it up. If you haven't seen me post to other threads then you must have been asleep. When someone steps up & says his theory is that terrorists were the most likely cause, without facts to back it up....that's being irresponsible. One's experience & hrs of flying is credible but I say "supposed" because I find it hard to believe that someone of that caliber would make such an irresponsible statement without fact to back it up & if you feel that's ok that's your business but it doesn't make it right. If you had family on that flight & could read all the theories , speculation & conjecture...how would you feel. I am not impressed, nor convinced as to the integrity of the person writing such irresponsible theories without fact. Glad neither of you are seating on a jury. By the way please tell me what scenarios I have interjected here or info I threw out there that wasn't backed up by fact. By the way I have been in many facets of the aviation industry since 1966 & have been involved in working 4 different acft accidents 1 of which involved a family member & 2 others involved close friends & 1 was a military acft that went down in Tucson Az.. I worked in law enforcement for 10 years where I had to respond to a military acft accident in Tucson Az where 2 women were killed in their car when the acft hit them. Trying to get them out of the car & do what you can to save them touches you deeply & when stuff is thrown around on a blog such as this, irresponsibly, & as I keep saying ,without facts to back it up....does not impress me at all & I don't care how many hours one has or if he is an author....common sense & logic should dictate what is said unless one is just tooting their own horn. I worked 13 years as an acft mechanic, I worked for the airlines for 19 years doing weight & balance. On one of my days off my relief worked an acft assigned to our desk regularly however this acft when down on take off losing about 29 people. The report as to the cause was "pilot error & wing icing"but the real cause was wing tip vortices on an acft landing on a parallel runway where the approach end of that runway was at the dept end of the other runway & with the quartering head wind across both runways the wing tip vortices were pushed into the flight path of our deptg acft. I knew the cockpit crew as we interacted with them on a daily basis. The crew had close to 20000 hrs between them & the capt was a navy fighter pilot. Maybe some things don't "bode" well with some because they adon't have the facts & don't know what they are talking about. Why is there such a problem with stating facts instead of conjecture. what you have accused me of you are guilty of yourself.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Thanks for the bio, by the way. The experiences and effects of them that you expressed are familiar generally with emergency responders with only particular details differing.

From this and other posts, it seems you have difficulty accepting that others might come to a different conclusion from yours when presented with the same facts. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and conclusions.

From what I have seen on the net regarding this incident, there appears to be wild headlines announcing what is a minor tidbit, it being extensively pushed without attribution in what appears to be an effort to inflate the network activity statistics of websites of dubious integrity.

Are these some of the sources and publications at which you take umbrage? If you are conflating the variety of posters on this thread with sites such as roomeetimes, I feel you are mistakenly using an overly wide tar-brush.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I tried. LOL. I could have just told him, oh never mind.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
yup...you could have just told him or me. But you probably didn't want to concede defeat
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
ok you win...
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I take it NASCAR day is over.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
He cried 'uncle'. Guess that's a TKO.

One man's speculation is another man's asking questions.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I've found the diplomatic ... "Maybe you're right." to be the diplomatic way to say pretty much the same thing and for me, it's settled many many "discussions" in a peaceful way, giving all parties benefit of the doubt.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Thank you, but I respectfully decline. I was not in any competition.
yours respectfully,
joel
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
only if it's reciprocated
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I said you win...that's what you say to someone so they think they won when they won't listen to intelligent renderings of fac tual data...by the way...i didn't say I was leaving...see more speculation...guess i'll hang around some more.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
lol how can you argue with "maybe you're right" ? i've come to the conclusion, based on just about everything you've written you just like to play devil's advocate.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
maybe you're right
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Why is your wild conjecture any more valid or pertinent than somebody else's wild conjecture when it differs from yours in the same absence of hard data. until and if they find definitive serial numbers from MH370 on something floating in the search area, yours is also speculation.
No report of fire received, does not prove no report of file was sent, or attempted to be sent.
Absence of data does not mean data of absence.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
If you have problems with someone who has lost a lived one in an aviation disaster and has industry knowledge expressing himself, then you're the one with the problem. You might need to go find a hole to hide, until this is all over. Be warned, it might take a while.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
use proper grammar & sentence structure. Why do you say I have a problem with someone who has lost someone in an aviation disaster. I never said, stated nor inferred that. If I find a hole to crawl into I'm sure I will find you there.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Again don't put words in my mouth & twist what i am saying. What speculation are you referring to ? I have not inferred nor stated any speculation, conjecture nor jumped to a conclusion but in fact what I have stated is not a scenario, conjecture or theory but in fact a response to those same things stated by others on this blog. Use common sense & think about what i have asked. An uncontrolled acft will not stay in the air long unless on auto pilot & then will continue on it's track/heading selected. An unconscious pilot flopping around in the cockpit would upset the balance of the acft even if it's on auto pilot which could be bumped off. You might want to reread my response above to clarify what I am saying.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Re-read your post. No change in my opinion.
Further, re:'unconscious pilot flopping around in the cockpit would upset the balance' unless you have empirical test-based evidence, that in itself is likewise conjecture. Believing something doesn't make it a true fact.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Gentlemen, gentlemen - do you think it's time to retire to a neutral corner? I could swear I read something a few hours ago about beating a dead horse and the continuation of the discussion a lesson in futility. There's no shame in agreeing to disagree.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Regarding the futility of beating a dead horse,
may I refer you to:
http://unix.sjcc.edu/DeadHorse.htm
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Ha! That's hilarious.

I think all three of us and many more can agree that some journalists and other website operators have tried to use this tragedy for promotion of their own outlets, with sensationalistic coverage and by using other journalists copy and photos without attribution. And that it was over the top.

But if someone doesn't agree which a free exchange of ideas in an Internet forum about any topic will find that a difficult battle. No one person can agree with all the ideas presented. They're contradictory. But it is in the presentation, analysis and critique of various ideas, that we can see which theories are most consistent with the known facts, and which facts, as revealed in the future, would prove and disprove which theories.

If not all agree to that free flow of ideas, then those that agree should continue, and those that don't agree, shouldn't.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I agree with the responsible free flow of ideas...it's the challenges presented to those ideas that elicit more responses to other possibilities. I don't think anyone here is against the free flow of ideas but when done so it should be done in a responsible way with as much fact & verified info as there is available. There's an old saying....it's ok to believe something so long as it's true which is based on fact otherwise you're believing a lie whether or not you are cognizant of it.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I don't mind speculation, so long as it's not presented as fact.

If you feel the discussion has entirely run its' course and is entirely exhausted, feel free to go away, as you suggest. When you're ready to come back to rejoin the conversation, I would imagine that you'd again be welcomed back.

But tell others not to speculate, as you speculate, doesn't go over so well.

But either way, it seems that a workable solution is afoot. Specifically, no one will prevent you from walking away for now. But they also plead that you don't try to inorve your view to prevent them from discussing whatever they choose, even if you don't see any benefit in it.

I hope that solution works for you.

[BTW the worst of it, which was the early false news reports that were being spread around the world and around the web.]

[There is now a growing body of known fact. I trust the folks here to self-regulate the discussions. There are enough intelligent and experienced participants, with lots of industry knowledge, to check whatever is thrown out here.]
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I am not trying to alienate people here & i know some of my statements come across strong so I will attempt to voice them in a more amicable way without conceding defeat while maintaining my position. I will issue an apology to any & all that might have been offended. However there are others that see things or feel the same way I do. I was willing to put down the sword but it appears you are not willing to do the same. I have never tried to prevent anyone from discussing their point of view but have asked that people do so in a manner that is based on the facts & info available. People have misconstrued & ignored that which I have stated or asked here in a responsible way. I understand that you have the privilege to say what you want re: this sad situation but we always stand the possibility of our position being refuted. If you disagree that it's ok to throw out a scenario that could be misinterpreted as fact without one shred of evidence to back it up then that's your & others business but I will refute those scenarios when the facts & info don't support it which is my privilege to do just like yours but again I will attempt to do so in a more amicable way so as to not be accused of rocking the boat. By the way I do not back down unless I am " proved" wrong which has not yet happened but i will not go away only later to return. I've only been accused of challenging someones theory of what happened & people didn't like that. That is what this is all about. If it's ok for someone to throw out there scenarios without fact or specific info to back it up then it's ok for me to do the same but with facts & info, to ask questions of different theories or to challenge, albeit, in an amicable way. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
that was tribal wisdom of the Lakota Indians. Read what Wikipedia says regarding beating a dead horse. It's more appropo to this blog. & I agree...time to put down the swords...all the speculation, theories, conjecture & challenges have been used up & we're now "beating a dead horse". We can come back later to discuss any findings & further evidence the investigators & searchers come up with. All in favor say aye & amen.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
that was in response to someones speculating that the crew was unconscious. Why do you think they have seat belts & shoulder harnesses for the crew. Are you saying that an unconscious pilot would sit restrained if the acft was bouncing around.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Sorry, I was responding to the 'flopping' comment. In my experience, unconscious people tend not to flop around. I would not consider an object ricocheting around a bouncing plane flopping.
jdenny5
jdenny5 3
And still they have confirmed nothing.....come on guys....I want closure on this as well but this plane did not fly almost to arctic circle. Again my thoughts and prayers to the families but this is far from over and not going the way the media is leading the world. I just don't buy the story, the changes in the stories, the US pulls all surface ships, and so on. It's a sad story. It took 2 years for Air France and they pretty much new where it was located.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
I keep writing this but no one replies - look at North Korea!
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Matt you said look @ North Korea....I doubt they're to blame but I would like to hear why you think N.K. may be involved.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
why N.K....
jamesmassena
James Massena 2
There is an art to spinning a cover-up story...It begins with spreading conflicting information so no one can distinguish what is FACT and what is speculation. Quoting Sherlock Holms, "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the TRUTH." Here is one impossibility we can eliminate...It is impossible for a commercial aircraft the size of a 777 to crash without creating a debris field. Sadly…after two agonizing weeks the only remains that can be found for the loved ones of flight MH370 is the ever-growing debris field of speculation.
ejmonsport
John Monsport 2
America's Finest News Source reports that the search has been expanded to include the Space-Time Continuum.
lbjack
lbjack 2
If one is praying for the passengers, then one must pray for a hijacking, because it offers the only hope. But I think there is no hope, and families should consider their loved ones lost. If their loved ones somehow have survived, then they can rejoice in a miracle.

By the way, we would not be having this discussion if all commercial aircraft were mandated to have one always-on-during-flight ADS-B unit independently operated and inaccessible to crew. ADS-B is superior to and independent of radar. All large civilian aircraft should be tracked full-time and should not go stealth due to any human action on board.

As illustrated dramatically by MH370, the importance of instantaneous, unambiguous tracking of aircraft should be self-evident. America and EU aim at full implementation of ADS-B by 2020 at the earliest. This is far too slow, not universal and does not call for the units to be non-defeatable. None of this is acceptable.
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 2
That is one of the more sensible (if not the most sensible) comments on this blog. This is an aviation forum where sensible ideas about serious issues should be exchanged. So why does everybody feel compelled to express their heartfelt grief for people they don't know? Not unsympathetic, but keep to the subject, surely!

ADS-B or Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast, is a fantastically simple system developed and marketed by a company in Anchorage Alaska that is able to tell us all we need to know about an aircraft on its flight - whether it departs from its plan or not. Australia has mandated that all its civil aircraft must be equipped with it.

ADS-B transmits a signal on a 1090 Mhz datalink twice every second. (Alternatively a newer frequency of 978 Mhz UAT (Universal Access Transceiver) is being introduced. The signal broadcasts: the a/c callsign/a/c ident/lat.long position/GPS data/altitude/vertical rate/ track, ground speed/any emergencies. Its range is up to 250 n.miles but dependent on altitude and obstructions. It depends on reception of the data by ground stations - in all control towers and a civil network. At the moment this is not extensive enough to provide complete coverage, but it would have told us much about what happened to MH370 from takeoff to its last established position over the Strait of Malacca. Its heading and altitude would have been crucial clues.

Unfortunately, it's going to be time to call in the mathematicians to use prabability theory to suggest where the aircraft went after the Malacca Strait. That's what found AF447 after four years of searching. Otherwise much of the static on this forum is just that.

The one thing we did know (has it been re-checked?) is that the plane carried only seven hours of fuel - six to fly to Beijing and an hour's reserve. With what it used flying towards Vietnam and then turning south-west. it would not have had enough left to reach the southern Indian Ocean where RAAF and US aircraft are now searching. I believe they are jumping at shadows, misled by questionable satellite photos. Just as they were by the calculations from satellite bearings that the plane followed a north or south corridor.

What's overlooked in all this is motive. The facts support the hypothesis of a hijacking - by the crew or passengers, it doesn't matter which.
welchnh
Bob Welch 1
Oh, I am so fed up with the endless speculation on this missing flight. We'll know what happened [maybe] if they [ever] find the plane.

A transponder would have provided a squawk code and pressure altitude to ground tracking stations. Whether ADS_B equipped or not wouldn't have added much more data- especially if ground radar stations in that part of the world weren't set up to support ADS-B.

Transponders have been equipped with On/Off switches since their inception and ADS-B broadcast capable transponders are no exception. Do we want to add the cost of mandating that transponders/ ADS-B be redefined to eliminate the possibility of manual control because of this one incident? Hopefully not
kamtrupslot
Thank you, Geoffrey Luck.
lbjack
lbjack 0
The "ground stations" you speak of might consist merely of a dongle plugged into a laptop. One of the beauties of ADS-B is the reception is easy, inexpensive and casual, with potentially far greater coverage than radar. The problem with MH370 was that the ADS-B unit was integral to the transponder, so that when the transponder was switched off, so was the ADS-B. Hence the ADS-B should be isolated from cockpit control.

The advantage of ADS-B is that it's report signal is broadcast everywhere. Thus the incompetence and mendacity and hidden agenda of a corrupt regime is taken out of the equation, and we should not have wasted a precious week on self-serving bs.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
One of the problems with ground stations is just that: ground. How many are floating about in the Indian ocean or off the SW coast of AUS? Receivers work line of sight. Offshore you are over the horizon.
The link below shows the ADS-B coverage of Flightaware contributors. There is more coverage than that, but it gives you an idea where coverage holes are.
http://flightaware.com/adsb/coverage

Another site with ADS-B data providers shows similar gaps.
http://www.coaa.co.uk/pp-user-charts.htm#3

A satellite-based global system would require a new layer of infrastructure with attendant costs. Who is going to fund such a program, and more importantly, how much greater value would it add?
timfountain
Tim Fountain 1
Sir, you are showing how little you know about ADS-B. Do other ADS-B equipped planes that are in line of sight log the ADS-B interrogations that they receive?
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
James...what cover up story are you talking about ? Time will bring all things to pass & we need to give the SAR teams & investigators just that....time to do their job. They need to be 100% certain of what they find not 99%. When you give out speculative info without 100% certainty then people tend to run with it like it's fact & misreport the info. If I have a reporter ask me about an SAR I usually won't give him a response for 2 reasons....past experience dictates they'll screw up the info & 2nd it's not my place....I refer them to the PIO.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Pull our your checkbook. How much are you willing to spring for the required infrastructure. What do you propose to do about the areas that are beyond the range of ground stations?
tjdavid21444
Tim David 1
None of it is any good if anyone can simply turn the tracking device(s) off. If you're going to implement any such equipment, there should be no way for anyone to turn it off.
inorbit
Eddie Gist 1
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
That is my checkbook- I will keep it in my pocket thank you.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
How much does it need to cost to LEAVE OUT one of the many on/off switches on a $250M plane?
Dimona
Dimona 0
We would not be having this discussion if Malaysian military would have done what it is supposed to be doing: watch their radar and take action when an unidentified aircraft invades their air space!
lbjack
lbjack 0
Actually, with ADS-B we would have had to rely on Malaysian radar or be hampered by Malaysian incompetence and mendacity.
tjdavid21444
Tim David 0
True, however, when one compares how big a debris field would be from such an aircraft to the size of the area in which it could possibly have crashed, one is virtually looking for specific grains of sand on a beach.
Myran
Sorry, you are doing a logical turnaround here. ALL sending instruments can be disturbed. I work everyday with peolple who thinks there are secure systems. The fact is that the more we think a system is safe, the easier the misuse.
You are doing a very wrong conclusion about the ADS-B even though the system is OK,
I am not close to but know Håkan Lans and his works well,but to lean on it as safe without some, for the moment very costful and huge system rebuilds outside the corridors, is something you just neglect.
lbjack
lbjack 0
You sound cocky, like a hacker, or a safe cracker. You say it can be defeated because you say so. Not impressive.

OF COURSE, ADS-B can be hardened so that it cannot be turned off. ADS-B has not been built to resist defeat, but if it is mandated to do so, then it can.
willbrownii
Will Brown 2
No shortage of Monday morning quarterback in here.
nasdisco
Chris B 2
Can we merge some of these similar articles?
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
here here...shaking my head
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
I wont speak to what was going on in the cockpit of 377, that remains a giant mystery at this point! But; if it's true that NO cell pho activity come from the cabin......total pax incapacitation is highly probable whether caused by accident or design!! There had to be at least some global satellite(rather then conventional line-of-sight)phones on board....and absent incapacitation they would certainly have been used. Decompression,fire/smoke,terrorist activity, crew incapacitation, etc. The key is in the left turn...and until we actually know WHY it made that left turn..... all else is pointless conjecture!
My best to their families.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Update: Malaysian Prime minister just announced that due to new satellite data out of the U.K., that the flight has crashed in the area of the South Indian Ocean, There are also reports this morning of some orange colored debris, consistent with life rats and/or evac chutes. Time will tell. RIP to those lost. Peace & strength for the families. Hopefully a fairly quick recovery on the plane and FDR.
calles
Carl Ring 1
As I said before about things afloat, - now cölours show up... Soon the evidence sheet will have a firm notification?
calles
Carl Ring 1
The evidence supported fact sheet is fairly empty. The speculation book has many pages...
Somebody to line up hard facts??
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 1
The latest official news might give new hope but changes nothing. China has released its own satellite photo of presumed wreckage; an RAAF aircraft has found odd bits of flotsam including a wooden pallet, and a New Zealand search aircraft revealed that the previous satellite sighting was only a clump of seaweed.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/search-for-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-objects-seen-with-naked-eye-20140323-35b4m.html

Authorities still have not provided any evidence for conducting the search so far south. The 777 had at most five and a half hours fuel left from its last established position over the Strait of Malacca - equal to 5000kms flying, yet the searching based on satellite information has been 6-7000 kms south. This seems to be grasping at straws.
narit01
Ian Narita 1
Being someone without any specialized knowledge of aircraft I have, to ask questions.

How is the cabling for the fly by wire system laid out in the aircraft? Is there a place where that could have been damaged by an inflight fire and rendered the control stick/yoke(?) unusable? Thereby forcing the flight crew to attempt to fly the aircraft with trim, engines and/or the autopilot /flight director (?).
Is there a smoke detector in the electronics bay of a 777?

It was mentioned that the First Officer had recently been flying a regular run to a closer airport. Might he have known the coordinates for the approach to that airport without having to look it up?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
The Washington posted and article with more information on the analysis of the satellite information and gives a bit more information regarding the data and why it is felt to be significant.

This appears to differ from earlier reports that were posted and reposted with little regard to accuracy and fact checking. We have to wait and see how much and varied it is reposted on the net.

The article first seen by me in the Sacramento Bee:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/behind-the-data-on-missing-malaysian-jet-plenty-of-mystery-remains/2014/03/25/4f760d06-b43d-11e3-8cb6-284052554d74_story.html

The referenced analysis document was
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/world/heres-an-analysis-of-satellite-data-from-britains-aaib/892/
Kantsi
Why all these while they investigation is dwelled on BB? Can they try another device
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
A mystery is a mystery until you read the whole book. We have a lot of pages to go until we find out who done it.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
This event is right up James Camereons' alley!
fourward
Ed Ward 1
Just one more 2 + 2 = 4 comment to think about
Since total liability would be hard to access without finding the plane how about sending the recovery team to the wrong locations at least until the batteries are as dead as the passengers have been
Perhaps they should be looking up rather than down in a completely different direction as north of China there is something called Mt. Everest and at 29'000 feet a dead pilot could hardly miss it
Impossible one would say....stay tuned and for those poor souls who still think the plane landed safely I still have not heard of a call or Hi
I
Mom message via text or email from there dead loved one RIP
Kantsi
Is being wonderful! all this time no any news about MH370 even the American/Autralins teams that claim finding some parts of the plane nothing to take home.
calles
Carl Ring 1
Is it likely that MH 370 would have fuel to reach the search area off Perth? Anyone who can confirm?
arifh2011
Arif Hussain 1
My heart goes for the relatives of all the passengers board on that ill fated plane,but question remains unsolved. we are in 21st century we call ourselves hi-tech but still we are unable to solve this mystery. This tragic incident clearly shows a lot is needed to do to secure the airlines industry
pradpodo
Its is indeed unbelievable in 2014 that the most high-tech aircraft in use, just vanishes from the face of the earth without a trace.. Have we failed in our efforts to place human values above all instead of geo-political one upmanship and tirelessly hunt for the missing aircraft as we owe to the relatives and the loved ones.
mbonefas
Matt Bonefas 1
WOW I have read some comments on mandating NEW avionics and ADS B TOO LATE GUYS check out FANS CPDLC and ADS C these mandates are already being forced on us albeit they are kinda cool I get text on my i phone from the cockpit ICAO has had these concerns for more than thirty years and this has taken thirty yeaRS TO HAPPEN soon you will not be allowed to fly to europe if your A/C is not equipped with FANS
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
Obviously we all hope they quickly find evidence leading to a totally fact-based conclusion. But right now this much "seems" to be fact! Either by accident, or intent, 370 deviated both horizontally and vertically from it's intended course and flew on w/no verbal communication (not even satellite cell pho!)for a number of hours! That screams to me of a "live" plane full of dead,incapacitated,or incapable (aircrew?)people! We don't need this to be the the aviation mystery of "all time"! The causes must be found!!
ricko1
Rick Beekman 1
Folke;

It is not about Religion, it is about the truth of things. Not saying all people in any chosen religions are bad people. But let us face reality and put aside " Political Correctness" and find out if the plane was hijacked or in the Sea. I feel sorry for the innocent passengers. None deserves this..
jjt123
John Timms 1
100% Correct
jjt123
John Timms 1
Im with you.
ricko1
Rick Beekman 1
Not buying in to the crash belief
This plane was hijacked. Whether The Pilot or Co Pilot..The Two Young Iranians using stolen passports. Or anyone else. Add to that two more things: (1) The 20 Semiconductor Employees and The 777 both high value targets for terrorists.And if one one of you Gentlemen or Ladies can tell me if the plane was "Tankered" how many miles/ hours would it take to reach Northwestern Indian Ocean Islands or land Look in that.direction I'm thinking.
pthibeault
j'ai 5 vols avec Malaysia Airlines en mai prochain.
calles
Carl Ring 1
2800 miles Kuala Lumpur- Beijing.
3000 miles Kuala Lumpur to south indian ocean suggested crash site. So beware...
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
We'll the Chinese have found some "suspicious debris" on their satellite imagery. Apparently North East of where US satellite imagery picked up "debris". Issue I have here is that there is all this imagery yet by the time search vessels and or aircraft get there, there's nothing. Apparently no one will get there to try find this latest debris sighting until Tuesday morning......the frustrating game of cat and mouse.
I get on here everyday after work hoping for breaking news......but no, the same old same old, "saw debris, got there, now it's gone".
calles
Carl Ring 1
outermost leads... But there is nothing that is proof of the planes travelling that way or there.
The evidence fact sheet is still fairly empty- the book of theories is now a library.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Being fed up with 2 weeks of sensationalistic coverage and the daily reports of debris found in the ocean (you don't say), I was finally taken in by the compelling storyline:

1. analysis and calculation of plane position based on satcom pings
2. search of satellite imagery (from the day after potential crash?) of the location that yields likely debris from the plane
3. an embedded reporter, reporting live from the cockpit of the most advanced search plane on scene, a Poseidon P-8, reported that the crew had picked up radar hits from the location in question.

But now nothing. No new info, together with reports that existing resources (like refueling tankers) are potentially not being applied to the search of such a remote location, brings up the question if this search is a distraction.

So was the problem:

1) A normally responsible and reliable news organization (abcnews) dropped their journalistic standards and integrity to get a lot of attention for 1 or 2 news cycles.

2) Officials from one or both governments (US, Aussie) intentionally pushed a news story because of some not yet disclosed reason.

Or

3) Could it actually be that the Americans and Aussies honestly believe the plane is in the south Indian Ocean, but that it's going to be hard to locate because so many days of strong currents and strong winds have scattered any remaining debris field, after other water logged debris sunk from he surface.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
According to this article, the Malaysians are running background checks on all foreigners aboard 370. Does anyone here have any theories on why they would think Malaysians couldn't be responsible? To me, this is a huge red flag.
SteveDietrich
Estimates of other trips, the 50+staff members, security, state department, spare airplane etc
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
It's based on the distances from the satellite calculated from the pings, shows that the plane kept moving not only for that number of hours but kept moving.

They can get a fairly accurate estimate if distance traveled until that last ping. The plane travels within a certain envelope. They also can try to figure a range of headings that would fit into the calculated distances from satellite at each ping (ping arcs) given the distance and speed the plane would travel every hour.

The unknown is how long the plane traveled AFTER the last ping. It could've been up to an additional hour. That's what makes the search area larger. And if you're looking for floating debris, than there the movement of floating objects in the ocean over time, which complicated matters even more.

Back for black boxes, they're more likely to sink rather quickly, if attached to heavy structural elements made from metal. So they'd be rather far down, but much closer to the calculated predicted flight paths as possible, given the tracks compatible with the ping distances.

There's always the possibility that the plane changed heading bear the very end of flight, when it was to end of flight. It may have glided off in a very different direction AFTER that last ping, if there was anyone still alive on that plane at that time controlling it.
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 1
There were only six pings reported. Five of them were after the change of course, therefore only five hours +? more flying. That doesn't equal 7000kms. And apart from the still-unverified satellite images, there is no . reason to assume the aircraft was heading south, not north. (Or west)
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 1
Very elegant charts by the WaPo. Problem is they have retro-fitted the data from the pings to suit the reported satellite photo of supposed wreckage at 40 deg south. There is no objective reason for placing those pings on the southern arcs - they could just as easily have been put on the northern arcs. At least that is the way the plane was last observed to be heading. My observation still stands, but I'll put it as a question - with the fuel load carried, how could the plane have got so far south?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
It's entirely possible the northern arcs are where the plane traveled. Both would fit the satellite distance as calculated from the pings. That's why both the northern and southern arcs have been mentioned from the beginning of talk about ping distance calculations.

The problem with the plane being up there (apart from the terroism issues) is that it's over land. So there's terrestrial radar of multiple jurisdictions that can be reviewed, if the plane is at altitude. There are millions if not billions of eyeballs and ears on the ground, if the plane were to be traveling hours at low altitude to evade radar.

The SIA68 travel path doesn't match the much further trajectory of the pong arcs. So the missing plane could've shadowed SIA68 in the air corridor over the Strait of Mallaca and the Andeman Sea. But only so far. The SIA68 flight typically peels off to the west over India to head toward its' destination in southern Europe.

In order for MH370 to make it through the northern corridor they'd have to leave radar evidence of either their flight or of some other flight that they
May be shadowing.

No radar. No plane.
No radar. No shadowing. No plane.

Either way. No plane.

I'm not saying that's the conclusive truth. I'm just saying the methods of determining whether the plane traveled in the northern corridor are more effective, as there are so many more inputs.

In the southern corridor, you've got nothing out there. So all you've got are the satellites over head, and some planes or ships that get sent there after the fact.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
If nobody has torn a bunch of pages out here and there.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The Malaysians are probably not the only ones doing background checks on some or all the passengers.

The problem of course, is that if they allow stolen passports to be used for passage on international flights, the true identity of all passengers might be impossible to know.

The Iranians were relatively easy to identify because they traveled to the airport (KLIA) that day with their real identities, and switched to stolen passports allegedly as part of illegal migration.

But any Malaysians or Chinese that were already present in Malaysia or had entered Malaysis with falsified documentation on the day in question or at any time prior to their boarding MH370, if they also used falsified credentials to board the plane, it may prove difficult to track down their true identities.

If there was an hijacking team on that plane, the greatest likelihood is that they were Asian and boarded with either Malaysian or Chinese credentials. It easiest to blend in, when you don't stick out like a sore thumb.
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
Are we ever going to know the truth of it all, I mean really? In the end, no amount of yelling and screaming from anyone makes a difference. All Governments involved just ignore it. It's like 9/11- ignore the masses who want a re investigation........problem solved. Don't acknowledge it means it's not happening, easy. Same with MH370.
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 1
Bonne chance
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Pas de soucis. C'était un vol de centaines.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
specifically how much fuel did the acft have on board. The last reported "ping" from the acft engines was about 8:11 a.m. from what I have read. They are finding more debris in the current search area than anywhere else but have yet to report verifying it is from MH370. The acft would have had enough fuel for the route of flight to destination, plus reserve as well as alternate fuel. Could have been as much as 8 hrs total fuel on board...but no one has released the actual figures of fuel on board.
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 1
Who would be thinking of making a phone call at 2 o'clock in the morning - and why? Sleeping passengers, or even those awake, would not have known which way the plane was heading or thought anything of a change in direction. There's no need to assume passenger incapacity.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
I'm still not convinced this is other than the usual flotsam from container ships. If as I still suspect the jet went down in the Andaman Sea, what were the currents running ten days ago - to the southern Indian?
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Carl i agree with what you stated....that's s good synopsis of everything being said here.
SteveDietrich
Aircraft will be carrying a substantial fuel reserve. You would also need to know the winds and the fuel used if the airplane did in fact change altitude.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Is this in reply to something? Please use the reply tag to keep things together, thanx
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
I have not been trained on the B777 (last I flew were the B757/767) but I've been doing some online research. What I have found is called "Mechanical Backup". (I'm thinking of "manual reversion" from my other days, on the B727).

Basically, since the normal, and degraded modes of the FCS requires electricity, the mechanical method allows for basic control of the horizontal stabilizer and a few selected spoiler panels, via direct cables. Theory here is to allow a crew time to restore some electrical power, to regain more discrete control functions.

As to the "routings"? I'd expect a great deal of redundancy was designed into the architecture.

And yes, smoke detection would be included in critical areas like the E & E bay.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Is it your opinion this event isn't tragic enough? Do you actually feel it's necessary to be as morbid as that?
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
You might google Indian Ocean Currents and look for map/chart.
One example I found was:
http://www.oceanweather.com/data/
select a particular region, check, and get back to the thread w/ your results.
thanx
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Debris in Andaman Sea would tend to travel WNW toward India.

The south Indian Ocean just west of Australia looks like a blender of chaos. The direction of travel of debris would seem to be dependent on where in those waters the debris actually fell. The currents seem to be going in all directions.

The complicated currents in that area will make locating debris that much harder.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Remember "Cliffnotes" in your college days? Too many Indians and not enough Chiefs.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
You're right (your 1st sentence)...it wasn't the Malaysians at all...here's how the article reads: "They have asked for background checks from foreign agencies on all foreign passengers.

Hishammuddin said background checks have been received for all the foreigners except those from Ukraine and Russia. Those two countries had three passengers on the flight. He said none of the checks have turned up anything suspicious."

I may be reading it incorrectly, but it sounds like any Malaysian on board wasn't put through the background check as were any "foreigners".

Just sounds strange to me.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Only carried one extra hour of fuel past Shanghai
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
35,000' to 45,000' and back to 23,00O' w/accompanying deviations in ROLL/PITCH, and if flown manually, YAW! And and none of the 230 pax noticed? I don't think so Mr Luck! If it's true that it went as high as 45,000' then it was above it's design altitude/limiting-mach vs IAS! Some call that the "coffin-corner"! Example:.... in level flight, and at that altitude, if you increase IAS to avoid stalling you exceed critical mach! Adversely if you slow to avoid exceeding the mach limit you still stall!! That's why most conventional (round) IAS indicators all have an accompanying limiting mach needle on the gauge. (you never "cross the needles"!)My point...if they actually went that high the buffeting, etc., would have also been big-time waker-upper! As to cell phone use! Night/day,church,restaurant,wherever/whenever....when I look around a crowded room half are on their phones!! Somebody on that airplane would have been talking if they were capable...and based upon what we know right now they were not!! Be well Sir..and thank you for your comments.
narit01
Ian Narita 1
Many thanks for your prompt reply.
fourward
Ed Ward 1
Nothing morbid about the facts All on board are dead and have been since day1
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Dating myself here, but my first entrance into college was a couple years BC (Before Cliff Notes). My first response to them was "where was this when I needed it?" LOL
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Then we disagree on what's morbid. "I still have not heard of a call or Hi Mom message via text or email from there(sic) dead loved one RIP" - morbid. Seriously morbid. But I'm not going to participate in a debate about it.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Altitude estimates from radar are notoriously unreliable, especially at a distance. It's not clear that the plane ever climbed to FL450.

If there was a fully loaded commercial pasenger airliners missing, and in unknown bogey flying across their sky, thought to be the missin plane, someone should've thought about waking some folks and scrambling some fighter jets to investigate.

If there were a couple pilots slumped over their seats, it would've been once to know. If the entire plane full of pasengers was headed to their eternal resting place under the ocean's waters, they at least merited an escort all the way down.

No way they deserved to be left alone to whatever fate they had coming, no matrer if at the hand of person or the result of a calamity.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
Welcome. As I said, since I never flew the B777, I had to search online to learn.
Found this: http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/BOEING/B777.html

So, using my past experience, I learn from the meager info that is provided there, building upon past experience. (What I mean is, there is NO WAY that such a site as I linked should be considered as a full training education).
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 1
They may have woken but as soon as the plane turned and descended and settled into some type of level flight, I'm sure back to sleep they went. They can't see outside and if the plane then changed altitude and heading here and there, this is quite normal in flight. Been on many flights where the plane ascends, descends and turns. That normally won't raise alarm bells. If it wasn't a hijacking and there was no commotion in the cabin then I can see why no one was on the phone at 2am.
That being said, the whole situation is perplexing so I guess anything is possible.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Photo...I have to disagree with your comment about radar altitude estimates being unreliable. I don't know if you fly or not but I use flight following as much as possible & they always give us heading & altitude call outs & they're pretty close & I consider them reliable. We also use an FRS/ACS in the cockpit to tell us of other acft in our vicinity...works similar to TCAS. If radar were so unreliable as you say we would have many more near misses or runway incursions than we do. By the way are you a RADAR tech. Radar coverage has certain parameters for detection which can be avoided. If they have finally found the site where the acft may have gone into the water, by virtue of the many pieces of debris they're finding, & can verify it's from MH370...then when & if they recover the black boxes then they will have the rest of the picture....& I venture to say all the desk jockeys & their theories & conjecture & jumping to conclusion will most likely be proved wrong.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Well Joel, I guess I'm dating myself by a couple years...but they safed my arse in a few occasions.
But getting back on the subject at hand...this is a real "Head-Scratcher" and I'm perplexed. Like everyone else. It was easier finding the "Titanic".
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Ella airliners follow a predetermined route of flight which is plugged into the nav systems on board. When an acft changes altitude or direction it's usually done to avoid turbulence & the crew has requested ACT clearance to do so...they don't just "go for it". or ATC may have given the crew a more direct route to their destination.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That team that found the Titanic, found AF447 in 2 weeks (2 years later).

Hopefully we've learned from them and their methods. So that the searchers may be incorporating the lessons learned into their operations.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That radar works well at short distances has little bearing at the problems in accurately determining altitude at far distances way past the horizon.

Note that much of the radar data is from 100 to 250 miles out, over water at the furthest points, and often with a single radar pickup most of the time.

This isn't the same as a radar that is displaying the results of multiple radars over land with radar coverage from multiple angles, and at much shorter distances.

Don't forget to take into consideration the issues that arise from the owner/operator of that passive radar.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
It took someone a few days to write the analysis routines to scrub the hourly ping data to come up with their current conjectures. I'd hope someone is doing the same to analyze wind & current data to backtrack any data from verified debris. That should show target area(s) to start dropping sonobouy patterns to pick up signals from the FDR.
Just more speculation chains.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Here's a fact:

Even if the FDR is pinging as designed, the number of days in which it will continue to ping are limited, and will soon come to an end. The batteries will run out and the FDR signals will end (if they've even started.)
fourward
Ed Ward -1
No calls were made as everyone was dead in the cabin as a direct result of the 777 going up to 45,000 feet
2+2 STILL = 4
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
There is no cellular network coverage at altitude or over the ocean in a plane moving at mach .89. So you're not going to get cell phone calls from passengers in a plane outside the range if cell phone towers, no matter their condition.

You can add all the elementary school math you want. But you don't know enough about the conditions on that plane to be able make conclusive statements of that sort.
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
Your on target Ed! Were talking satellite link which provides GLOBAL coverage.....not ground line-of-sight towers! Out of 239 pax there would surely have been many such phones on board.....and and it defies logic to suggest NOBODY would be on those phones..... no matter what time of day or night......unless they were incapacitated!
As to whoever said the pax wouldn't even be aware of normal aircraft maneuvering....I totally agree! BUT...35G to 45G to 20G, etc.,in a relatively short time w/the accompanying pitch changes is far from "normal". It would have spooked somebody!!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Cell phones don't work at altitude, over the ocean and at fast speeds. It is likely that 2 or 3 of these factors were preventing cell phones from getting a signal at every moment in question of the subject flight.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/18/travel/malaysia-airlines-no-phone-calls/?c=&page=0
preacher1
preacher1 1
I will not get into the cellular phone argument but the statement that everyone was dead as a result of the 777 going up to 45000 feet is grossly in error. If an explosive decompression had occurred up in the FL's, that would have been one thing, but there is no evidence of that. Normal pressurization at probably an 8000' atmosphere would be maintained by the plane whether at 4000' or 45000'. Outside altitude would make no difference in that regard, IF things were normal.
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
Whoa!There is no evidence of "normal" cabin pressure either! None!
That's my whole point....things were far from normal! Whether from decompression,smoke, or "other" .....no known (at this point!)communication of any sort came from any of the 239 pax. As to "45,000"...you're right. It makes no difference! If it's as low as 20G and there is insufficient oxygen ...the result is still lethal...it just takes a bit longer!
The question remains: in this gabby-gabby world of ours why was there total silence from those 239 souls over a period of some 8hrs???
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
Check out Iridium Or Globalstar.....these are just a couple of satellite driven smart phones that are independent of ground stations! They don't care about altitude ,airspeed, or distance....and they've been around for a while!
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, you have a point, other than people obey authority more in that part of the world, but by the same token, why did we wait so long before any info was released. Banana republic overwhelmed!!!!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Have you ever used them?
Have you ever used them indoors?
Have you ever used them inside the cabin of an airliner?

Satphones are usually line of sight. I've never used them in flight myself, but have found them to be somewhat temperamental on the ground overseas. I read that pilots have trouble with handheld satphones on board. Often some system of cabling to a GPS antenna is used to get a signal. Even when the exterior is composite, it has been known to block the signal. Typically only glass is transparent to satcom signals. And you can forget even the glass, if it's heated.

Of course very expensive exterior antenna setups are great at getting a satcom signal. But these setups are very expernsive. Even Maylasis elected not to pay for the optional satcom data service.

Handhelds don't have the same fidelity, as installed systems.

Does anyone have experience with using handheld sat phones without a external repeater antenna inside of moving planes, who would be willing to share some details?
annellandfrank
John Taylor 1
Your question is excellent! I have only used it in my little Cherokee and it worked well.....but that's no airliner.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
What is tankering a plane?
yr2012
matt jensen 1
We fly a medium size jet or in our case a large turbo prop to a foreign country that has cheap fuel - like Venezuela. Top off the tanks and the spare fuel bladders and fly it back to our base. Do that a few times a week and you save your company about $10 grand
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
he's referring to "tankering" fuel. That possibility was raised a while back, but Malaysian Airlines says that only the fuel to destination and alternate and reserve fuel was loaded.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
That's what they said, but that doesn't mean it's the truth. I'll believe them*, but not gullibly so.

Certainly wouldn't be the first time they'd be caught telling bold, fat lies since their plane has gone missing

* don't take it as gospel truth, and only until better information is available.

Wouldn't be surprised if intelligence officers haven't grabbed airport footage of the departure roll to try to determine takeoff weight, and try to do a backwards analysis, to get a better idea of the amount of fuel weight the plane departed with. (As a backup to verify if the amount of fuel documented is correct.)
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
Quote: "...to get a better idea of the amount of fuel weight the plane departed with. (As a backup to verify if the amount of fuel documented is correct.)"

Yeah...I presume that Malaysian uses dataliink like most everyone else nowadays (since at least the late 1990s) for the final Weight & Balance and Perf info?

That data will be stored in the Flight Ops computers, and at Dispatch, etc. There would be a fairly good trail to follow, unless as you posit the airline wishes to lie, or to withhold information pertinent to the case.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Trust, but verify.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
you have a hankering to do some tankering
A380Fan
Paraic Dooley 1
Ina way one would hope it is the jet although the whole story that has been evolving since MH370 went missing and the terror the families are going through. But this will eventually rid the speculation and allow facts to be found, Thoughts with the families at this moment as they go search for the objects.
jdenny5
jdenny5 1
What about Rolls Royce and Boeings ACARS systems? We know that they were turned off or disconnected at somepoint; however, my understanding is the the Engine Monitoring would not have been able to shutoff from the cockpit inflight??? But even with the that, like Onstar that is available in your car.....even when you don't subscribe (like Malaysian Airlines didn't) they have the ability to track your car when stolen, unlock your car door if you lock your keys inside, and even call 911 if you are in an accident......all without you being a subscriber. They have the ability. I still believe Boeing and RR know more than they are saying and I have my opinions but we all know what they opinions are.
latteju
latteju 1
Can anybody please explain:
When the Chinese autoroties reported they found debris from MH370 on satellite photos, many people were sceptical because the pieces were "too large" and "too late".
# Too large because a plane crashing into the ocean would shatter into smaller pieces (the pieces identified on the pictures were 13x18, 14x19 and 24x22 meters).
# Too late because they were spotted on pictures taken more than 24 hours after the assumed crash moment so they would have sunk by then.

I'm not seeing the same scepticism for the new find, even though:
# the pieces have been in the water for more than 1 week. Is it possible that large pieces of aircraft fusalage or wings would remain afloat for over a week?
# the pieces are of similar size (24 meters long, but less square). Would it be possible that pieces this large are found if a plane crashes into the ocean? I can not believe that this was a graceful "hudson-river-style" landing onto the water. A hijacker wouldn't fly a plane into nowhere. A suicide pilot would not land a plane gracefully. If the plane was controllable, they would have flown it closer to land. Thus the plane was nt controllable and the crash into the ocean was not graceful.
vanstaalduinenj
How is it the wreckage is still floating?
sgbelverta
sharon bias 1
Easy to understand article on what happens to planes when they run out of fuel in the Sydney Morning Herald. http://www.smh.com.au/national/mh370-search-what-happens-when-a-plane-runs-out-of-fuel-20140321-358jo.html
Gurica
Gurica 1
Stop the speculations. Like forensics says "we have to to have the body of the person to see whats was the cause of death"
nickpiszczek
The worst pile of speculative rubbish ever to hit the air. shameful.
Any so-called expert who enters the Frey is simply there for self promotion.

The only thing left to be said about MH-370? ...Is to say nothing.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I agree with what you say & you can read my response to AWAALum below. There has been too much speculating, theorizing, conjecture & conclusion jumping before anyone knows the facts.
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
Think of all the parts that make up an aeroplane, titanium, composites (Many honeycomb construction), kitchen units and the such can trap air. Think of real estate signs made of corflute and wood (An analogy not what they are made of!) that wood float.

People keep relating to AF flight 447 hit the water at about minus 11,000 feet/minute, at 170 Knots, 16 degrees nose-up, rolling slightly to the left. Several floating parts including the composite tail.

I am still fully reserved as to the cause, where and how.


andromeda07
andromeda07 1
The AF 447 tail was floating 4 days later. But would it still be floating 14 or 40 days later?!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The A330 tail of AF447 was made of composite materials so that it may have remained buoyant, even if water-logged.

But airplane parts made mostly of metals would tend to sink. Even those metal parts that are hollow and initially might float (eg. a wing section with an empty fuel tank), would sink when the hollow interiors filled substantially with water.
avihais
Martin Haisman 1
...would float...
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 0
"Speculation", theorizing, talking about it is a way of healing Gurica - the same way firefighters may talk and even joke about a tragedy they've just returned from. It helps people deal. Leave us alone.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
I totally agree...but I think that only makes two of us
latteju
latteju 0
Thank you. The link you posted answers partially the question I asked 20 minutes earlier...
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I agree with Gurica. All the desk quarter backs haven't given any answers to finding the acft but only come in with their preconceived theories & speculation which could deepen a persons pain...which you say you seem to be healing from...if so then maybe you should consider professional assistance also. Except for yourself, I don't believe i have seen anyone on this blog say they were suffering personally. Empathy & sympathy are 2 different things...i can empathize with the families but that's not the same as sympathy which we can all express but haven't personally endured. It's a natural human trait to have sympathy when there is a disaster or loss of any sort. Talking may be a way to help one healing but theorizing & speculating throws fuel on the fire. I don't think Gurica is against talking but feels as I & others do about theorizing, jumping to conclusions & speculating. Healing offers direction, guidance & understanding to help some deal with their feelings but doesn't aggravate the situation as speculation & theorizing does. Correct me if I am wrong but you have not been directly affected by this tragedy & if you have you should be in Malaysia or China supporting the other families not here speculating which leads me to believe that you were not directly affected....if you were you could give us an update on exactly what you were told by the investigative authorities & airline personnel. By the way just as you have the privilege to express your "opinions" on this sight, within the bounds of courtesy & dignity for all others regardless whether you agree with them or not....so Gurica & all others enjoy the same privilege.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
You may be right - I may be right. However, you can bet that the people actually involved in the search are speculating and theorizing. That actually sometimes leads to answers. There is no reason for your sarcasm. If you were a truly professional person you would know how to communicate in a professional manner without resorting to that style. In keeping with that particular topic, you would benefit by reading your last sentence and take it to heart ... the part that says "express your "opinions" on this sight (sic), within the bounds of courtesy and dignity". This website is exactly for what is happening - an exchange of ideas. It isn't necessary for you to define empathy and sympathy for me. I'm not illiterate. If you don't agree, that's fine, I don't care. And by the way, since you seem to consider yourself an armchair psychologist, you should know one doesn't have to be directly involved in an event to feel emotional pain. I do feel pain for the victims and their families and friends. Don't be so presumptuous as to think you know how I feel. So just as you yourself have said, I have the privilege to express my opinions.
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
US Poseidon has found large objects on its radar,visibility is poor.
Dimona
Dimona 0
Until I have read a foul play scenario that DOES make sense, I am going to stick to the scenario the pilot(s) was/were trying to reach an airport after a sudden emergency. Loss of oxygen knocked everyone unconscious, plane kept on flying until out of oxygen. Wouldn't it be relatively easy to draw a straight line from the last known flight path, and use that as the basic search area? That area would be much more west than the area everyone now seems focused on.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
The carrier could have saved the families a lot of grief if they had done the SWIFT upgrade
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
Orion aircraft expected to arrive shortly.
mbazell
mbazell 0
Airliner hijackings are not new. They have just become more sophisticated over the years:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675034185_airliner-seized_Leon-Bearden_Boeing-707_released-women
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Most likely the crew would have descended to 10k feet to alleviate the necessity of o2 especially in a decompression situation....but again these are things we don't have info to back up...they also would have had time to declare an emergency & atc would have seen them descend to the lower altitude & the acars, samsat, & transponder most likely could have still been working but the transponder apparently was turned off manually. If I'm correct this all happened about an hour into the flight & the acft made a 180 deg turn but didn't go back to their dept airport which would have been a normal intention depending on the scope of the emergency. Anything sudden like this has been hypothesized on this blog & would have meant the aircraft, if it experienced a dire emergency, would be much nearer to it's last reported position, however the acft apparently continued flying for another 7 hrs or so until fuel exhaustion.
jdenny5
jdenny5 0
People don't want to think hijack and I say maybe your right , maybe someone just stole the thing!
calles
Carl Ring 0
I saw you coming down on us as we sailed pass Cape Hatteras and towards NY. We came from a meeting with US Coast Guard off Haiti. Your tail feathers almost blew our sails off and there was no more than a mattress thick of air between you and the sea. A number of hits with the afterburner and off. I yelled at your command center in my best swedish- Apparantly they understood and the greeting in NY was formidable. I love you Americans! www.hyrsvanen.nu
kwu20001
kev wu 0
I don't understand why this has negative votes.... I was the first to squawk this
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
Australian Maritime Safety Authority to hold briefing on search live at 1530 AEDT.
Quackers
Quackers 0
Americans, Aussies only "credible" searchers. ( to much a lesser extent Chinese and Indians)
Other nations either lacking the technology, competency or have other factors affecting search efforts. We will know more in the next 12 hours. If it is wreckage, its probably the tail fin (just guessing there). They can figure out using computer models etc how far its drifted and so on. Pretty deep water but an important development if this pans out
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
1 object measuring about 24m long.
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
Australian war ship on route to newly spotted objects in Indian Ocean south West about 2500km off Perth, Western Australia with capacity to retrieve any wreckage if found.
zknzw1nz747b
andrew carter 0
Australian Air Force Orion is route to site and will arrive shortly to asses the items that maybe the downed airliner missing. It to me sounds like this is what appears to be some interior of the jet. The AMSA reports no bodies found as yet but believe this is a difficult spot in the Ocean if they confirm it. The US airforce is also rushing to the seen.
roseannasrose
Rose Wilkinson 0
Would be very surprised if it does turn out to be parts of it.
zknzw1nz747b
andrew carter 0
Yep it sounds to me like they have located this aircraft or 772 that went down 13 days ago finally items or debris is submerging but no bodies found as yet five warships and four defence force planes are en route to the area. The RAAF Orion should be there shortly
andrewcarter
andrewcarter 0
ABC TV here in Brisbane are saying the RAAF found this wreckage part which belongs to a jet liner. Now the media are saying it is the jet. How do they know this quickly
andrewcarter
andrewcarter 0
AMSA holding news conference to verify parts found in Indian Ocean are that of the 772 that went down thirteen days ago
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
I just saw pictures of the wreckage looks convincing.
afandiyussof
Afandi Yussof 0
The area is part of ISS ZARYA route. But the debris yet to confirm by Malaysian DCA.
zknzw1nz747b
andrew carter 0
RAAF has images showing 24 mtr long aircraft interior wall and states to confirm three larger parts belonging to a plane a approx floating 900 mtrs from larger piece found earlier and other debris of yellow description on surface. Could it be the aircraft if it is is breaking up and eventually bodies and parts will come to the sea surface. I am 100 per cent sure they have found it. The Malysian authorites say this debris is not from merchant ships at all
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
RAAF says its a 4 hour flight to and from Perth to search area that leaves them 2 hours to search area before returning to refuel.
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
A Low pressure weather system past the new search area 6 days ago and moved East towards New Zealand,30 - 40knt winds and 20 meter swells.
Any suspected wreckage would most likely had been pushed in an East/NE direction.
http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/charts/viewer/index.shtml?domain=combinedW&type=sigWaveHgt
zknzw1nz747b
andrew carter 0
Very sad to see this news filter through. I watched the ABC news a few minutes ago and the AMSA has confirmed aircraft wreckage has being located. The larger peice seems to be that of the wing area. Also more debris is coming up and reports from the Orion RAAF aircraft the landed a few hours ago says the weather is battering them for the search. Two more Orion aircraft one from New Zealand will be arriving in soon to confirm more wreckage has come up.The former Qantas chief pilot has also said he knows this will be the plane and also stated it will be a difficult taks to get to the 772. He did state on dry fuel tanks there won't be any signs of fuel left or vapors and said the tanks will flost up to the surface sooner or later
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
The RAAF P-3 Orion and US Airforce P-8 Poseidon return to Perth without sighting the debris.
Late on Thursday, Norwegian car carrier Höegh St Petersburg reaches area in southern Indian Ocean where possible debris of the missing Malaysia Airlines MH370 plane was spotted.
Australian officials end search for possible objects from missing plane at midnight on Thursday.
The search will resume at 5.30am Perth time.
siriusloon
siriusloon 0
The referenced abc.net.au article makes NO claim whatsoever of "What appears to be debris or the interior AFT wall area of a long item floating" and what "inscription" of a jetliner has been confirmed, pray tell?
jdenny5
jdenny5 0
Let me clarify before anyone goes crazy....Onstar is not onboard aircraft. I was using their ability to monitor an automobile (millions of automobiles) with and without paid services in comparison to how the Boeing/RR ACARS systems works, even if Malaysian Airlines didn't have the Boeing Package for ACARS services, that doesn't mean that Boeing couldn't see it, it just means they didn't provide a service to airline for it.
mcdc
AIMS double failure ??
BlueBaron
Bruce Thompson 0
Do Commerial aircraft have ELTs as do all part 91 and 135 aircraft, and if so, can it be ARMED/UNARMED from the cockpit. I have been wondering why there was no beacon from an ELT on impact.
Also if the search area is so remote (4 hours from Perth) why hasn't US provided a KC10 or KC135 to support the search. Surely the P8 Poseidon has refuel capability. This could give them many additional hours on station. Without this support, the search area is looking like a token effort
USflyer1
I have heard conflicing messages from news media. CAN or CANNOT someone in the cockpit turn off the transponders??????? One demo showed it's as easy as flipping switches.
mtpiper
mtpiper 0
I haven't scoured news reports for this info, so I'll ask here.
Is it possible for flight crew to pull a circuit breaker for CVR and FDR on the 777? If so, I would think that if there was enough forethought at disabling transponder and communications, along with a plan to truly "disappear", then the CVR/FDR may not have any data once located. Just a thought.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
This is ridiculous 4 hrs in each direction with 2-3 hrs over the pattern. Ok, come on now Aussies - put up the refuelers
blanketj
Jay Smith 0
Why is this is a "top priority" for President Obama? Are there any American nationals involved at all? Are we just trying to do a favor for the Chinese?
CMusonda
Chanda Musonda 0
They is a system the US Air Force has that can track both commercial and military planes worldwide. it can also record conversations the planes have with air traffic controls and the flight path.
ricko1
Rick Beekman 0
Terrorists used Aircraft before to knock down buildings. They may try this again with these innocent passengers as pawns. Also please check how many prisoners from one certain nation are being held for 12 years in Guantanimo..Here is one reason. Anyone add your thoughts.
OrrinWells
Orrin Wells 0
The ELT is picked up the minute the plane crashed 1 month of batt time no signal no crash. Wild Goose chase the plane landed somewhere someone is going to use this plane for something.
wingbolt
Todd Wilson 0
I think it is in the same place as the dignity of our congress...in some deep dark hole to never resurface again.
mikeoxlong
mike oxlong 0
leave it to the USA to do everyones work for them....you're welcome
Doobs
Dee Lowry 0
You know...it's going to take along time to find MH370. The Maylsian government withheld information to recover the aircraft. Like I said before, a Mystery is a Mystery unless you read the whole book! But, like Joel said, rip pages out of it and one will never know "Who Done It"! Again, I have said..."too many Indians and not enough Chiefs"! The Maylasian Government doesn't have a clue how. to handle this catostrophic event. They are putting the victims families thru HELL! If the world is so concerned about this disaster....which I think they are..bring out the big guns who know what they are doing! The Maylasian Government...I feel..know more than we know. Why are they treating the families the way that they are? Again..don't want to lose "face" like Asiana. Personally, I don't think there was a mechanical failure. The only way to turn off the transponder is by physically doing it- human!
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 5
Don't assume that everyone in here is either sincere or serious....and don't take it personally. Some people enjoy pushing buttons, and others are just plain idiots.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
That they are!!!
BlueBaron
Bruce Thompson 2
The transponder sends an open air (encoded with a "squawk" code in the range of 0000 thru 7777, plus altitude) response to being swept by a radar beam, ATC thru their radar computer assigns the flight # to this for display and the computer calculates ground speed and direction which is added all together on the screen in an ARTS display. The plane transponder can be turned off, and is in fact completed controlled by the crew. If off but in radar coverage then ATC would be receiving the plane as a primary target only without the benefit of any of the information provided by the transponder.

The ELT is a separate device (emergency locator transmitter) which is either OFF, ON (transmitting, for test purposes, or manually activates by a crew member on the ground) or ARMED in which case the the ELT would begin transmitting on an impact.

The "black box" is a data recorder which provides information from a storage media about the controls and parameters of a particular flight after it has been found.

ADS-B as lbjack has suggested, would certainly be removing all of the doubt of where, path etc that the world is currently engaged in.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Beautiful lines. A proud swan indeed. timmerbogserare? That one has goggle translate stumped.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Thank you for your summary of everything we're already aware of.
timfountain
Tim Fountain 1
Yes, transponders can certainly be turned off in the cockpit. Standby would also work.
tjdavid21444
Tim David 1
I guess you haven't been following along, Jay. Yes - 3 Americans aboard. And besides that, what else has Obama got on his plate? A few more rounds of golf? Another trip to Hawaii? Really.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I guess you forgot he has to run the country too!!!
OZAIR
OZAIR 1
The image via spy satellite would be very accurate,hence the reason why a lot of craft are being sent to the area.
Lynchrice
Lyndon Rice 1
what images have you seen and where are they from?
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
Yes,true.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Cherry picked item from Fox News interview- Obama also reportedly remarked on SMU's apparent snub by NCAA in the interview. You did not mention that.
Some possible reasons for 'top priority'"
1. immediate issue with international response.
2. USA w/ heavy investigation experience.
3. Open question of malfunction/malfeasance
4. If malfeasance, then as a potential target it is within our national interest to investigate.
5. blah blah blah
6. Etc.
(note I did not include divert heat from Affordable Care Act- aka Obamacare)
lbjack
lbjack 0
As I understand ACARS, it does not report location but only reports aircraft operation data for service purposes.
avihais
Martin Haisman 0
All aircraft parts are serialised so especially in this case the parts list and maintenance data would have been ready, computerised and waiting from day 2
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
I will post any new info here at 1530 briefing.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
The satellite image search found 2 pieces of debris, one which is up to 78 feet in length.

The update is that an abcnews reporter embedded on the P-8 Poseidon flight in the search area reports that the crew is ecstatic in tbat they have found significant radar hits and are heading in for a closer look and to take some photos to bring back for analysis. The folks on the plane are very optimistic that they have found the MH370 missing plane exactly where the satcom calculations said the plane would be, plus where the satellite images reveal 2 large pieces of debris. Now that they've [Poseidon P-8 crew] gotten radar hits in the same spot, adds further credibility.

We should know conclusively by the end of the day and have photos of debris from the missing plane.
OZAIR
OZAIR 0
Satellite images taken four days ago were analysed and confirmed, on Thursday,
siriusloon
siriusloon 2
Confirmed as what? That they're satellite images? Unless a HUGE piece of wreckahe bearing the airline's logo is visible in the images, the only confirmation possible requires Mk 1 eyeballs on the scene.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Confirmed the satellites are working.
The Australian authorities said the satellite photos appeared to show what might be large objects in the water that could be parts of a plane.
Video report included 'news went like a flash through the waiting media scrum".
I liked the 'scrum' the media seems to have filtered out the adjectives that indicated uncertainty. No surprise there.
avihais
Martin Haisman 0
Four aeroplanes from Australia and New Zealand were first dispatched in a staggered search followed by a US based aeroplane on information from a British satellite image. One object approximately 22-24 meters (Approximately 72 - 78ft in Americanese)
avihais
Martin Haisman 0
Affirmative
joelwiley
joel wiley -1
Some P-3 Orion a/c are aerial refueling capable, but the question is whether the ones in use are. Other factors may be involved. I don't think it is quite as easy as just pulling in to the next KC135 on the corner. Corners are rare in that part of the ocean.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Our jets are in flight capable and Lord knows we have the corner on the availability. Haven't flown a KC135 in 15yrs. They use KC10's now.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
When I was looking to see if the P-3 was inflight capable, I came across a 'rare' photo of one communing with a KC135- that's how it made it into my post. I see KC10's practicing approaches to KMHR fairly regularly- I call it KC10 driver Ed.
SteveDietrich
As a side note the US has authorized $2.5 million for the search.

The US is probably spending $50 million for Michelle's China trip where reporters are not allowed to ask questions.
OZAIR
OZAIR -1
Latest is Aircraft and Ships are on route to the area and searching the area.Nothing confirmed yet.1530 AEDT.
scr307
simon roy -1
Another example of catastrophic accident caused by decompression is Helios 522. Although the aircraft a Boeing 737-31S did not suffer a decompression event in flight the narrative of events demonstrates the time lapse between the last communication from the crew and the eventual crash as 2hrs 43mins.

HCY522 [Helios 522] departed Larnaca on 14 August 2005 at 06:07:13h incorrectly configured for take-off, the pressurization panel was selected to 'Manual' instead of 'Auto'. Subsequently the aircraft did not pressurise, communication from the crew ended at 06:20:21h. The flight continued until 9:03:32h when the aircraft collided with terrain following a rapid descent approximately 33km northwest of Athens International Airport.

http://www.aaiasb.gr/imagies/stories/documents/11_2006_EN.pdf
tbpera
Tom Pera -1
darn...there goes all the wild speculations.... sad...
fluglehrer
fluglehrer -1
Because of poor information and misinformation on official sites I suggest another theory : Why is the plane first rose very high and then dropped again? If the cabin pressure drops quickly at this altitude, there are no chances of survival for the unsuspecting passengers. The pilot could be protected by a separate oxygen supply. But the passengers would quickly lose consciousness and no longer be able to make emergency calls - then it is also logical that the phones still worked - dead people can no longer make calls . Then dropped below the radar coverage . The engine manufacturer Rolls Royce , however, has received so-called pings for the transmission of telemetry of the engines. Is it a coincidence that the Boeing then Pings still 6 - ie 1 per hour - sent and the last was supposedly doing to the U.S. military base on Diego Garcia . Coincidence? Who knows if a secret service now spead debris elsewhere in the sea so we all believe that the machine would be wrecked in the ocean. What reason had the employee from the chip manufacturer Freescale for the journey ? Freescale is a manufacturer of chips - perhaps the answer lies here all the questions or in one secret of another passanger?
Donnytoots
Don Levine -1
Just for everyone's info: Light 370 is now 318.
Donnytoots
Don Levine -1
Sorry, it should read Flight 370 not Light.
OZAIR
OZAIR -1
Us Poseidon aircraft on scene now.
OZAIR
OZAIR -1
Debris may be scattered over hundreds of kilometers from original crash site due to wind,swell,current.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
That's normal procedure to delete the flight nbr from future flights. Ever see row "13" on an acft.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Thank goodness I'm not a reporter. What's your source re the $50M?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
(Sorry for the duplication - my computer's dying a slow death.)
tpmorrow
tpmorrow 2
Why would the captain "suicide" himself and everyone else "aboard" if pressurization failed? This kind of speculation is worse than that of the US's CNN.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Thank goodness I'm not a reporter. What's your source re the $50M?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Understandable. Who would feel warm and fuzzy boarding MH370 today.
avihais
Martin Haisman 0
Ummmm errrrrr can't fine the confirmation anywhere that it is part of MH370 or other floating debris????
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 0
We'll clearly MH730 was pressurised because the pilots were communicating up to 45 mins after take-off. Anything and everything after this is just speculation. I guess it's possible to have purposely depressurised the cabin, ascend to 45,000ft to render the passengers unconscious quicker and then proceed with the plan but what is that plan?? I mean, there have been no demands and killing the passengers renders no leverage or bargaining chips. Seriously, we could go on and on in speculation atm and never come up with an answer. Let's hope they find the FDR and CVR.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Maybe because his wife left him? Otherwise, where is the family that disappeared the day before departure?
magicelle78
Ella Talbott 0
Apparently he knows something 99% of us don't. Insider info or a troll.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Its one of those super secret spy satellites that read the interior part serial numbers from 110 miles up.
FolkeBergstrom
Folke Bergstrom -2
This is a religious matter once more. Folke Bergstrom
zknzw1nz747b
andrew carter -2
Yes reports are coming in they have found this jet and more debris
fourward
Ed Ward -2
No cell calls were made as everyone in the cabin was dead due to the plane going up to 45,000 feet
2+2still = 4
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 3
why do you say it's a religious matter. That doesn't make any sense at all. Tell me what I'm missing.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Ed how do you know everyone was dead. There is controversy about the acft ascending to 45K But it could have. Ever try to make a cell call in the air on your cell ph. You have to have a cell tower which means traveling @ 500 plus miles per hr over the ocean there probably wouldn't be too many to choose from. I guess you could make a call if you had a SATPHONE. People don't die just because they went to 45K...unless of course the acft was depressurized which no one was the case...& no 02 masks dropped.
heraldoortner
heraldo ortner -3
AFTER TWO WEEKS, THE MISTERY CONTINUES, I BELIEVE THAT THE TWO OR MORE GOVERMENTS INVOLVED HIDE INFORMATION, BECAUSE I THINK THE HAVE FEAR OF THE TRUTH , THE PLANE CRASHED THE FIRST HOURS OF FLIGHT.NOBODY KNOWS NOTHING???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Is your caps-lock broken, or are you shouting for some reason?

[This poster has been suspended.]

PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 7
William Bennett is a fake profile controlled by:

Imran Hafeez (Roomee) Panhwar
36- Asif Block, Allama Iqbal Town, Lahore Street No # 7  
Lahore
Punjab 54000
Pakistan
+92.3134511929

..in order to promote his own website, where photos and reporting as stolen from real news sites without attribution for the plagiarized content.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
If this is verifiable, do you agree Flight Aware should suspend the membership? (By the way, impressive work Photo!)
canuck44
John Donaldson 0
There you go again...searching out names in the Encyclopedia of Muzzie Assholes.
andrewcarter
andrewcarter -4
Sorry Geoffrey Luck your a CLUCKERFLUCK? OOP'S is that how the word is spelt. You talk such crap yourself. Where you got your false info from is completely off record. Guessing your just someone looking to stir trouble or simply board. I would suggest to try another site for your comments. Maybe the children's show PLAY SCHOOL you aren't nothing to do with the airline industry?. Your ISP is showing where your are by the way fix up your security
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
Susan I think you're on the wrong thread/topic
Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 0
All insults and bad spelling. Can you make an intelligent comment or are you just a cheer squad for the RAAF whatever they do?

[This poster has been suspended.]

Paciano
Geoffrey Luck 1
Sorry Harry this is complete rubbish. The satellite image published will probably turn out to be the sunken freighter spotted by the U.S. Poseidon search aircraft.
This search is in the wrong place. Common sense and simple arithmetic show that MH370 which had fuel for seven hours (six hours to Beijing plus diversion reserve) had used up two hours to its last confirmed location over the Malacca Strait. It therefore had at most 4,000 kms range and five hours endurance. The search zone is 6,000 - 7,000kms from the Strait of Malacca.
ChrisGoode
Chris Goode 1
Put a link to your source. I can find nothing about what you say. This site is for aviation enthusiasts of all sorts. We all like verifiable information without an agenda. Source your statements please...
RaySundar
Ray Sundar 0
The latest info regarding a turn towards the land and descent to alower altitude. Does this suggest a scenario where the two pilots are incapacitated and that another person who is not familair with the 777 aircraft tries to desperately turn the aircraft around towards land does not know anything about a coordinated level turn and therefore the aircraft is loosing altitude while turning. The aircraft is probably closer to straits of Malacca than possibility gustimated by all these conflicting hijacking theories that are beeing hyped up by everyone.
OZAIR
OZAIR -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Missing 777 Wreckage may have been found in Indian ocean

Breaking News
Australian Orion aircraft on there way to possible wreckage spotted in Indian Ocean.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/22069885/app-could-have-helped-find-plane/
fourward
Ed Ward -1
Masks that drop are only good for less than 15 minutes 45000 feet is well over the recommended altitude of the 777
As widely reported the hijackers involved in the 911 take overs those on the flight deck rocked the plane in order to stop the passengers from storming the flight deck and retaking the plane.
Those in control of the 777 found a more effective way to control the passengers.....forever!
awinn
Alan Winn -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Australian Prime Minister says satellite found objects possibly from missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Thursday Mar. 20 satellite imagery had found two objects possibly related to the search for a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER jetliner missing since March 8 with 239 people on board.

http://airguideonline.com/2014/03/19/australian-prime-minister-says-satellite-found-objects-possibly-from-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/
klch0801
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Australian PM: 2 images possibly related to missing jet

Australia has sent aircraft to investigate two objects spotted by satellite that could be debris from a missing Malaysian jetliner, Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Thursday.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-missing-malaysia-plane-20140319,0,792336.story
JerrySteinberg
Jerry Steinberg -4
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Australian PM Says Possible MH370 Debris Located in Indian Ocean

Speaking in front of parliament Thursday, Prime Minister Tony Abbott said that a “specialist” analysis of new satellite images revealed two possible objects in the southern Indian Ocean.....

http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2014/03/australian-pm-says-possible-mh370-debris-located-in-indian-ocean/
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Ed please thread your responses, so that readers can follow the discussion properly.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Well there was a flight engineer on board - a pax
fourward
Ed Ward 2
Responding to Photofinish
While I may not know how to use this service I sure do know how to think
As a former pilot I understand why a plane would climb to 45,000 feet and then drop to under 14,000 and that's to kill off the passengers so they will not be a threat and then admire their handy work BUT IT APPEARS THAT THEY KILLED THEMSELVES AS WELL!!!
IF they ever find the plane and it shows and sign of a fire or other disaster that prevented the crew from sending out a MAYDAY I'll gladly eat my words. As for those who think that this plane landed safe wilth
all on board safe I have'nt heard of anyone calling for a Pizza or Captain Cho chicken take out or delivery for 239 People parked down the street in a 777
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
If the plane is sitting fat and happy in a hangar somewhere, the pax are probably out back in a ditch not needing pizza or any other amenities. By breathing, they would be a security risk.
fourward
Ed Ward 1
I see that you know basic math