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United Actually Enforcing Carry-on Size Limits

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A major airline finally seems to be cracking down on passengers who board planes with carry-ons the size of dumpsters, or who try to game the system at the gate. United has begun enforcing its rules on the size of carry-on luggage, even turning back some passengers at security checkpoints and requiring them to return to the counter to do what they should have done in the first place. (www.usatoday.com) More...

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cos3asg
cos3asg 8
Well, it is near frickin' time! In my 50 years of air travel, I have seen everything from polite people who are embarrassed to put a briefcase in the overhead bin, to boors who (seriously) put a hockey bag up there and smile about it. This enforcement is a positive step and I would applaud and congratulate ANY gate agent who carries it out.
Glick
Paul Glick 12
Amen! I board my plane and then sit and watch passengers try to jam in luggage that clearly won't fit. I make it a point to never help ladies who bring on body bags and the bags are too big and too heavy. Check them like you are supposed to. I have enough trouble dragging around 40 pounds of luggage to the check it. I could never drag that luggage around through security and out to the gate. However to be fair, I am a 2 million miler on Delta so I never have to pay to check luggage.

Then you have the passengers who drag their luggage to the gate waiting for the airlines to announce free check in at the gate.
dnorthern
dnorthern 4
If you can't sling it (into overhead) don't bring it.

Always amusing to watch someone try to stuff a 10lb load into a 5 lb space.
sparkie624
sparkie624 7
LOL, they need to charge them double at the gate for non carry on size...
coffee3425
Coffee Colvin 6
I don't fly as often as I did before I retired, but hooray for this action. How many times did I see huge bags stuffed into the bins and cabin attendents wrestle with them while the pax calmly sat on their duffs and were blissfuly unaware of the problems they caused!
RRKen
I too am quite glad they are enforcing the rule. One flight I placed my laptop bag in the compartment, and some lug came along behind me and tried to cram what could only be described as a coffin for an animal on top of it. Then he had the nerve to be offended when I protested.

Create a template for carry-on's, adhere to the policy, and the rest must be checked!
preacher1
preacher1 2
Most airlines already have a template or size rack at the gate but won't enforce it.
clabo
Wellp, didn't there used to be a more or less "standard size" bag for stowage overhead?

I have a classic Globus Gateway carryon bag (big red rectangular one; just goggle the images to see what I mean) that seemed to be the same (again, "standard"??) size as other bags of the era. I stopped carrying it with me all around because I realised what a classic it is, and don't want it getting worn out.

Point being, all those bags were probably of Approved Dimensions that could just slide into the overheads, say 3 per row, and have a perfect fit like a Tetris game.

So why not just restrict all overhead stowage to certain Approved Dimensions? Hell, UPS won't take boxes that are longer in certain dimensions or heavier than a certain weight (70lbs?), so even put dividers into the overhead area, with designated space *for each seat*. If it doesn't fit into Your Designated Stowage Area, it gets checked. Period.
lwilmott
Larry Wilmott 1
I remember a Dennis Miller rant years ago where he expressed his displeasure of standing behind someone for ten minutes while they tried to stuff a jet ski into an overhead compartment. That mental image comes back to me whenever I fly and watch the carry-on carnival.
RRKen
Also, any sold space on overheads should be allocated AFTER all other passengers have boarded and stowed.
btweston
btweston 0
I also remember when he was funny.
stave
Edgar Murphy 9
We just need to add a trash compactor to the baggage x-ray. If it doesn't fit going in, it sure as hell will coming out.
clabo
Awesome... :D
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
This is a good thing.... Really makes me mad when some stupid idiot gets all the way to the back of the plane and can't fit their luggage...[-
joelwiley
joel wiley 4
United was quoted in a separate article as stating that this is not a change in policy. There seems to have been an unwritten policy to refrain from enforcing bag-size policy, and more rigorous enforcement could be seen by some as a 'policy change'. This will conflict with some passengers impression that they are entitled to ignore rules that they either don't agree with or inconveniences them.
It hasn't been going on long enough to claim adverse possession.
satenst
Hallelujah About time some airline started to smarten up.
WhiteKnight77
WhiteKnight77 4
I brought this up some time ago when this very subject came up. I even went as far as to say that those who want to gate check should have to pay to do so, yet someone objected to it.

This problem has been around since the 80s or 90s when people first started to carry on more and more baggage and the smaller day cases that flight crews use became popular with normal passengers. That is when the boxes at both the counters and the gates made an appearance that reflected the size of allowed carry-ons. The trouble is not then or until recently has anyone actually enforced this.

Bravo Zulu to UA for deciding to enforce the limits, even at such a late date. I typically fly with 2 suitcases, a backpack with my laptop (that fits under a seat even with a printer and a book in it) and my camera case (not that large anyway) for work. I check the suitcases, put the computer backpack under the seat and my camera goes overhead. There is no reason why I should have to make room or remove my stuff due to some imbecile who thinks that those bins are for just their use only. They are there for 2 to three people to use, not just one.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Passengers with properly sized carryon bags shouldn't be charged for gate checking just because the airline ran out of space. Obviously and grossly oversized bags would be another story.

---
Even if checked bags were completely FREE, many travelers (particularly among frequent and business travelers - many who qualify for FREE checked bags now) would prefer to carry their own bag(s) and not check any baggage for various reasons, which may include: don't want to wait for baggage claim; don't want to line up to check their bags; have had bags lost, misdirected or delivered late and/or colleagues who have lost bags with disasterous results or lots of unnecessary distraction from their work; have their work wardrobe, work product/ presentation materials that will be necessary for their meetings in the bags, etc.
isardriver
isardriver 6
it is about time - glad to see it and every other airline should do the same - some folks are very rude with their impressions of "entitlements". i personally have experienced some significant departure delays, as the "non-fitting" bag issue developed into a heated exchange between flight attendant and passenger. i am glad to see this enforced
donrkelly
Don Kelly 3
Business passengers started this trend by refusing to check their bags. The airlines made it worse when they added fees for checking bags. I'm all for enforcing the rule as long as the airlines publish what the size limits are up front. Found out the hard way this summer that normal carry ons don't fit in an RJ. Another option would be to allow one checked bag for free or for a greatly reduced rate.
mcr77
Myrna Haft 3
It is so insulting when you pay to check your baggage and watch people bring on huge soft bags and so_called carry ons... My paid luggage was removed from a flight to "lighten the load " as the plane was crammed in the overheads .... I had to wait til the next flight and at least , they delivered it to my destination ....
skykingsp210
skykingsp210 3
It is about time. I have seen many passengers try to stuff bags in the overhead compartments, knowing the bags are larger than the maximum requirements. Good for UNITED.
MimosaDrive
MimosaDrive 3
It's about time.
xjefe
Dana Levin 3
This should have been done when airlines starting charging for baggage, nobody saw this coming? And elites, of which I'm one, are just as bad! I've seen 1st group boarding where some passengers are jamming 3 items in the overhead bins. I applaud UA for this move, and yes, I check my bag!
jsterner
Jerry Sterner 3
Kudo's to UA. If the bag doesn't fit in the box, go back to checkin, pay the fee and hope you make the flight.
thehatchet
I think I hurt my hands applauding at this one. We hear about alternate boarding plans etc, when this one change would speed up boarding and increase passenger satisfaction (for the non offenders) instantly.
skykiel
donald kiel 5
It's about time!!! Now the next thing ALL Airlines need to enforce is ONE carry-on PERIOD!!! Not a roller bag, a back-pac and another bag draped over their shoulder!! BRING IT ON UNITED!!!!
devsfan
ken young 2
Oh I agree. I was on a flight from CLT to ALB thru IAD..There were several people who had a carry on, a computer bag or some other type bag and......a backpack.
That is THREE items.
The rules state ONE carry on and ONE personal item.
Invariably, these sneaky cheapskates would stow their carry on AND the backpack.
Kudos to United.
Hopefully other carriers will follow suit.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Not an airline flying that doesn't have a size rack at the gate. They just don't enforce it, afraid of pissing somebody off; it overworks the gate folks and has the potential to not only delay boarding but to delay the flight. Normally by the time that pax are being boarded, checked baggage is already loaded or being loaded, and gate check stuff is just extra time. They ought to at least start charging the gate check stuff. I have seen it where pretty much everything was gate checked, and as 1 comment says here, row 5 pax were looking as far back as 25 for an empty bin, and that was a mess, especially at destination. As most planes are on tight turnarounds, the unloading aftermath cuts into that time.
preacher1
preacher1 10
Yeah, the theory is that the overhead bins are for the seats directly underneath them and not for the entire use of 1 pax. At destination, this puts a reverse flow of pax having to go toward the rear to get their "carry ons". What's really bad is that when you have a legal carry on and have to go back 5-10 rows to get it and/or wait until the whole plane unloads, all because of 1 ignorant cheapskate.
tlblosser
tlblosser 2
I wonder if any flight attendants on the list may have a comment or two on this subject? It seems that they spend more than half their time during pre-boarding assisting the paxs to cram their bags/luggages in the overhead.
jdriskell
James Driskell 2
Great!! Way to go United.
airclaxon1
Paul Claxon 2
I only hope that the other airlines follow United's enforcement !
WolfieGreene
Dee Greene 2
Yea for United!!!!!, but will they really enforce it to a tee, I truly hope so. I too have witnessed body bags trying to be stuffed in the bins and I wont help out either. I pay my $25. and sit to relax for my flight. I have been hit many times on the head with someone trying to pull out their body bag because they just cant wait that extra 3 seconds for me to take a step ahead as we exit. In fact I remember a man pulling so hard that his bag pulled the bins latch right off ripping his bag. He immediately started yelling saying that it was the airlines fault. Fortunately everyone around made comments about his abuse to the bin and it was completely his fault. Don't know what came of it but the flight attendants and captain that also saw it thanked us a little extra that day. I think because we spoke up and turned the table on him. I'm in the 75000 mile yearly group.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
carry on weight is not factored in with pax weight. Pax weight was 165 plus 10 addt'l pounds for winter weight. Bags were calculated @ 25 LBS. Subtract the carry on weight from the pax weight see what you get...a pretty small pax. weight wise. The weight meter in the cockpit will display the actual weight of the acft. The newer equip may have that now but years ago Airbus was the only one that had it back in the 80's & 90's that I know of. Even if the carry on baggage weight were figured as part of the pax weight i'll wager a dollar to a donut that if you took the pax & his bag, they, together, would weigh a lot more than 165 to 175 lbs.
RobbieMurray
Robbie Murray 2
Don't try it on with European budget airlines! Most have both a cage and scales at every gate and allow strictly one bag, max 10 kilos, and if it's overweight or doesn't fit in the cage, it's surcharged or left behind! No handbags, laptops or cameras, and in many cases, not even a plastic bag of airside "duty free"purchases. Ryanair, Easyjet etc don't take prisoners; be warned!
rcrahlf
Randy Rahlf 2
Recently on a flt from Phoenix to Puerto Vallarta my wife had to gate check a small carry on, while the man in front of us carried on a large back pack, a carry on duffle bag and a SADDLE and put it all in the overhead...
adblair
Alan Blair 2
It is about time.
stinsonsteve
Steve Dow 2
I just hope the other airlines follow suit. This should NOT turn into a disadvantage for United!
johnroyjr
Psgrs need to be stopped before getting to the gate. If you check yours you have to pay, at the gate they don't, so they will just bring it there. Some airlines have had bag seizers for a long time but the gate agents don't want to go through the disagreements from the passengers over their over sized bags!
rtp1491
Amen, it's about time carry-on luggage is kept within reason. I say pay for carry-on luggage and checked luggage should be free.
devsfan
ken young 2
I was in the process of deplaning and the jagoff with no patience just HAD to be the first to get his bag out of the bin. He would not let this guy out of his window seat first after he asked to get by. The guy wiht the bag lost control and it hit the waiting guy in the head. Not to outdone. The guy waited until the bag guy turned his back and he elbowed ther bag guy right in the back of the head. The bag guy was so stunned, he said nothing. I laughed my butt off.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Had he thought he'd get away with it, he would have stowed the horse! LOL
preacher1
preacher1 1
Weight Meter is nice. LOL
btmiller
Tim Miller 1
I'm in complete agreement -- on a recent TPA-DCA flight, I brought my laptop bag (quite small - fits under the seat easily) and a very small roller bag (fits in the test rack at the gate). Of course, I was in the last boarding group and they ran out of bin space. So, I wound up having to gate-check my very small roller bag while people ahead were wheeling massive roller suitcases on. Extremely annoying, to be sure.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Won't happen. There is a real cost to providing a checked bag service. The airlines have to hire workers to handle the bags that passengers check. The bags won't walk themselves onto and off the planes, and from check-in and to baggage claim. Plus getting the right bags in the right flights at the right time also takes some effort. That cost is real.

In contrast, carrying on is work being done by the passenger. So there is little direct marginally cost to providing the carryon service. The bibs are already installed. The flight attendants must already be present by regulation and will be paid the same, no matter how many passengers or packages show up.

It's like saying that all package delivery services will henceforth be free. But you'll have pay to walk across town carrying your own package that you'll be delivering to your friend's place yourself.
donrkelly
Don Kelly 1
Airlines charge a lot more for handling baggage than it actually costs them. Not to mention there are offsets like faster deplaning and boarding with fewer carry ons. That translates to money for the airlines. You can bet they work the pros and cons into their service programs, just like banks balance to cost of fraud against easy credit rules, but sometimes unforeseen consequences arise.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
So assigning a limited number of baggage checking employees to security check points redirects lots of size-violating oversized bags into revenue generating checked bags. This way they help pay for the baggage handling operations, and cause fewer problems at the gate and in the aisle of the plane.

I suspect they'll apply less effort at first/ business class security check points, than others.

First, they have fewer passengers up front, so fewer bin capacity issues.

Also, these folks already paid substantially more than others or their passage, and should deserve an equally larger share of bin space.

Lastly, if your concern is revenue, a later proportion of business/first flyers qualify for free bags due to their status in airline FF programs. So there would be little gain gotten for a lot grief caused to passengers that airlines are fighting for.
Gudseeds
Gudseeds 3
How can you consider a 'Roller Bag' that you are apparently 'Not Carrying On'.. 'Carry On' ! It's about time ! Recent flight from ORD to MCO..Row 5 passengers were down to Row 25 looking for room for their 'Roller Bags' ! Told the wife, I would make them go 'Check Them'..or just heave them out the door on the Tarmac if they refused !
devsfan
ken young 2
I support this 100%.
I am sick and tired of these inconsiderate self entitled dolts hauling bags which clearly are large enough to be checked below deck, cramming them into "their" overhead bin, leaving no room for even the smallest second piece in the bin...
Or worse yet, these jerks will stuff their crap into a bin and squash the bags already stowed.
If I were king of United for a day, i would make a policy that these jerks should be charged DOUBLE the luggage fee just for trying to sneak an over sized piece on board
konatom
T Economou 2
Standing/waiting forever while pax are trying to wrestle oversize bags into or out of overhead bins. Kudos to UAL and I hope the rest jump on board soon.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Already exists. It's called Spirit.
lawitty
Maria Koenig 1
I do not check my luggage due to the fact that it has gotten misplaced too many times. I am a 1 million miller on United and every time I travel with my family my suitcases 1 out 2 don't make it. Was left in Israel without luggage for 3 days - It arrived in time for me to go back home… Even on Southwest my carryon was checked at the gate to my final destination - It did not make it. It was lost for 10 hours on a 45 minute flight….. I have bad luck with my luggage so I will always CARRY ON…..
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
For an insider's perspective of what actually happens to your bag after you surrender it to the airline, chech out thus book featured on abcnews:

American-Made Baggage Handler
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0615195490/

Some of the more smug comments would be strongly reconsidered by their writers.
vincentvan
vincentvan 1
On Alaska Airlines, the last several times I've flown, they are now boarding customers who have nothing for the overhead bins right after the pre-board and first class customers...
wishtv
Terry Hunter 1
Its about time!!! I don't do carry on, even on a short trip...and hate it when I am running late for my connection, and have to wait for all these dang heavy carry ons. I think anyone without a carryon ought to be able to get off the plane first! And these people that bring a large carryon, and then other bags beside, is unbelievable. Yes, all the airlines need to crack down.
robdub
Rob Willett 1
"Clueless rudeness" describes it beautifully, I was recently on a flight AA from CDG to DFW in Business and one of the passengers from Economy decided to load her bags in the overhead bin in Business as they were heading to the back of the aircraft. As there was no room for my legal hand luggage I complained and the attendant told me there was nothing they could do about it. Australians aren't much better than the Yanks, but I think they do it more so the poor darlings don't have to wait for their baggage to come through at the other end, Australian airports notoriously slow ( slowest in the world I think ) because baggage handlers are all Union members and do what they want, when they want.
btweston
btweston 1
I have never used the overhead bin. Don't want the hassle. I stick my backpack under the seat in front of me and go to sleep. I throw the rest of my crap in the belly. If you don't have twenty bucks... What do you think you're doing traveling by jet?
aschnaak
Allen Schnaak 1
It's about time! I've been flying for over 50 years and hate to lug around my luggage through the airport and on the plane. In these years I've had my luggage "misdirected" three times... Considering the ease of maneuvering through TSA, terminal, restaurants/bars, and gate area, I'll take these odds and check my bag every time. These idiots boarding with footlocker sized bags need to travel with more confidence in the system of baggage handling. Overall, I like the odds of checking my bag and traveling with less stress.
Obguy
Daniel Coty 1
Thank you. Just for that, my next flight will definitely be on United.
preacher1
preacher1 1
As a pax, I do like the overhead bin but I like my bag over my seat. What I dislike is having to go back 5 rows+ to find a place to stow it. Seems to me that there is a bin over 3 seats and you are entitled to 1/3rd of it.
waterman15
Dave Nosek 1
Saw a comment on another site about making the opening in the scanner at TSA the exact size of the carry on limit. If the bag doesn't fit it will automatically be rejected. Sounds like a plan to me.
avesraggiana
Aves Raggiana 1
No, not ALL OF us behave the way I've described but it's a pretty sure bet that US domestic air travelers, conditioned as they are to avoid check-in baggage charges by cramming their steamer trunks into the overhead bins, also carry on those habits when they travel overseas on overseas carriers.

The only one personalizing my comments and feeling insulted by them is you. Be a real American, which I assume you are, and stop being so thin-skinned, and tolerate the idea that just like any group of people anywhere in the world, we have our own foibles that are to be pointed out and laughed at in turn - especially by ourselves.
avesraggiana
Aves Raggiana 1
This is a venue where I reserve the right to express my opinion in any manner I wish, just like you, my fellow American. Like any American with a robust and healthy sense of patriotism, I can regard my fellow Americans with equal measures of affection, pride and yes, embarrassment and disdain. I hope you take it upon yourself not to assume anything.
Keeperdavid
David Rei 1
On the routes I fly regularly, pax with excessive carryons are usually from the United States. I see this mostly on the routes between the US, Europe, Austrlaia, and New Zealand. I fly enough to be comfortable stating that my experience is probably representative for these routes, but I don't know how other routes are. I suspect it's because pax from other countries are used to having the carryon bag size enforced, and that the standard carryon size in some of the other countries tends to be smaller to begin with.
indy2001
indy2001 1
Having flown several times on intra-European flights recently, I can tell you this problem is not unique to Americans. If anything, U.S. passengers are less likely to throw a fit if their bag(s) can't be accomodated. I've witnessed plenty of childish tantrums or boorish behavior after passengers were sent back to check their large bags properly. The only real difference that I've seen is the willingness of FA's to get physically involved with rearranging bags to clear some room in the overhead bins. Particularly on British Airways, it's amazing to watch some of them at work.

Regarding this whole topic, I doubt whether UA's emphasis on enforcing its pre-existing rules will last more than a few months.
nyj713
coco liguori 1
Carry on baggage Sizers at the gate will be disappearing in a few months..now how do you enforce denying jumbo bags..boarding time for a 737/757 increases to 45 minutes no flight will depart on asked.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Aagin...no overhead bins,no carry on luggage...problem solved to the benefit of the airlines. More bags to be charged accordingly, less acft weight, better fuel consumption, less maintenance, gate agents & flight attendant don't have to deal with it & on time departure time goes up. Don't have to worry about bags shifting or the bins opening accidentally & something coming out & injuring someone due to turbulence. De-planning will be a lot quicker. I remember years ago on the first 727's the bins didn't exist. There were overhead racks that had blankets & pillows in them.
avesraggiana
Aves Raggiana 1
You rarely see this kind of ridiculousness going on on foreign carriers, and if it happens, the culprits are inevitably American, who feel the compulsion and entitlement to bring EVERYTHING with them. It’s just really gotten out of hand and if these cheapskate passengers with an over-primed sense of entitlement would just accept the fact that air travel actually COSTS SOMETHING, they’d check in their bags and pay the fee, or learn to accept higher airfares that realistically reflect the real cost of flying their fat asses - and all their bags. Passengers - Grrrr…..
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Remember this...for domestic flights all the carry on bags are NOT figured into the actual weight & balance of the acft which is being calculated by a weight & balance specialist who relays that info to the crew via the paperwork electronically sent to the gate or verbally to the crew via radio. This could add 100's or 1000's of pounds to the W&B of the acft...changing the original "nbrs" the W&B specialist gives the crew...especially the trim for takeoff setting. I have seen it where even more fuel was required due to a change in the weight of the acft. The w&b specialist is responsible to ensure the acft is not over loaded or out of trim for all the parameters he has to meet prior to dept & there are a lot. The passengers & baggage are calculated on an "average" weight. All freight & mail has an exact weight. The nbrs are all based on one engine out on departure & often times the crew is doing a reduced power takeoff for fuel conservation for the weight they are at. So if all the carry on baggage, especially that which is oversized, were made to be checked @ the counter then a more accurate weight of the acft would be known. I think all overhead bins should be removed from the aircraft. Personally i think all baggage, except for what will fit under the seat in front of you, should be loaded in the cargo hold of the acft. This way the airline wouldn't need overhead bins, making the acft lighter enhancing fuel economy & maintenance & this would be the end of the problem with people bringing on baggage that is toooooo big & also it would provide a more accurate W&B calculation & trim for takeoff setting. End of problem.
waterman15
Dave Nosek 1
Not a new problem. Over sized carry on bags have been around since way before paying for a checked bag was introduced. I'm glad to see United trying to enforce the rule's although it's probably not going to last unless all of the airlines enforce the same rule. They need to make one size rule and insist that passengers place there carry on only in the bin over there seat. If someone else has taken that space then they should be allowed to dump the bag's already in there in order to accommodate there's.
Another option would be to charge more for an oversize carry on than a checked bag. Might not stop the problem but it would slow it down.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
remember this....every bag placed in the overhead bins is NOT counted in the weight & balance of the aircraft. This could lead to 100's if not 1000's of extra pounds not calculated into the weight & CG of the aircraft. The cockpit crew is given a take off trim setting by the weight & balance specialist who is working the W&B of the aircraft. If the acft has a weight meter in the cockpit then the crew has a more exact idea of the total weight of the acft. Passengers & bags are calculated on an average weight for domestic flights. All nbrs are based on one engine out on departure. Also a lot of departures are done on a reduced power setting for fuel conservation.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Carry on weight is factored in with pax weight but there is only a good guess for CG. Most of the newer stuff has the weight meter that takes most of the guesswork out of it and it is tied into the FD for trim settings and all. Some more of that automation that is to be managed and used as a tool, not a crutch.
RobbieMurray
Robbie Murray 2
Don't try it on with European budget airlines! Most have both a cage and scales at every gate and allow strictly one bag, max 10 kilos, and if it's overweight or doesn't fit in the cage, it's surcharged or left behind! No handbags, laptops or cameras, and in many cases, not even a plastic bag of airside "duty free"purchases. Ryanair, Easyjet etc don't take prisoners; be warned!
1rocky1
Walt Leuci -1
This is not a venue to personalize your comments against a particular group of people. Re-read your own posting. You don't reserve the right to insult people, you follow the rules. You can generalize your comments but when you make them against a specific group of people you have overstepped your "rights". Not all Americans are the way you have expressed. I don't assume anything. You might try treating people with courtesy & dignity instead of disdain.
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Walt and Aves,
would you mind carrying your conversation using 'reply' rather than posting a new message. That way the rest of can follow your argument. Thanx in advance.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Nothing like getting a good argument started late in the day. LOL
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Not to mention organizing it to make as much sense of it as possible. 8-)
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
I still think no overhead bins...problem taken care of...lol
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
It would certainly take extra manpower to handle paying for carry on baggage @ the gate. Right now there's usually 2 people manning the gate...one scanning the boarding passes for paxs enplaning & one manning the podium. As it is now when the gate has to check carry on baggage because the flight is full you have to coordinate with the ramp personnel to load the bags. If they are gate checked bags then the pax can retrieve their bag on the jetway at their destination or connecting point but if it's checked all the way thru then the ramp personnel will transfer the bag to the connecting flight. Though I'm sure the following will never happen it would certainly solve the problem & that would be removing the overhead bins...lol. It would save on fuel & mx costs, enplaning & deplaning times would go down drastically helping with quick turn around times & on time departures & all the associated headaches for the paxs who have to wait while someone loads or retrieves their bag from the overhead bins.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
Providing a checked bag service costs the airline money.

Passengers carrying thier own bags and stowing them without airline employee intervention costs the airline nothing.

Planes can't be completely without storage bins because all items need to be stowed for departure and landing for safety reasons.

So all things being equal, there is an actual real marginal cost of providing checked baggage service, which just doesn't exist for passenger carry-on bags (that don't require airline employee intervention).
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, on the early 727's there were no bins, only racks with pillows and blankets
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
So, walk on cargo as sunk-costs beasts of burden. I like it.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Those were just for pillows and blankets and maybe a coat. Though many airlines had coat closets.

Nowadays, passengers carry a lot more gear. Laptops, tablets, phones, cameras and their accessories, that many passengers will not trust airline employees to not break and/or to not steal.

Plus back then, passengers relished the services including baggage handling. Nowadays, they prefer to get through the airport quickly.

Many road warriors would stop flying airlines that don't have bins for the carry-on bags. They just wouldn't want the hassle of dealing with checking luggage.

So the only deal breaker would be to not have passenger compartment bins at all. Most business travelers/ road warriors would pay for the overhead bin service if there was a cost. But many wouldn't fly an airline without proper bins.

Airlines give their best customers free checked bags. So it would not be a stretch to imagine that they'd get free carry-ons too, even if a fee were introduced for others. All the airlines want the big spenders.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Back then, flying was an experience. Now it harks back to the time when travel and travail meant the same things.
konatom
T Economou 1
Pax are going to fly no matter what the situation is. The flights are loaded to capacity...on Alaska...even though they've doubled and tripled their fares recently. Everyone is so doggone PC that we're afraid of our own shadows. Enforce the darn rule. If someone rants over not being able to bring oversize bag on board, where else is he going to go? he will tuck his tail pronto when he hears 200 passengers cheering the airline . In the interest of schmoozing the passengers, this situation has turned into a runaway train.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
The only real need for overhead bins is for acft equipment....defibrillators, 02 bottles, medical supplies, blankets & pillows. This has become a Pandora's box that no one in the industry monitored until it began to get out of hand. There is no rule or law that the airlines must provide overhead bin storage for passengers. If they keep the overhead bins then they should enforce their rule hard & fast with no questions asked. The carry on either fits in the template they have at the gate or counter or the customer gets charged for the bag...but the gate is not the place to charge for the bag. During the holidays you have people carrying gifts along with their baggage trying to stuff it all into the bin. I remember when there were no enclosed overhead bins & the only thing on them were blankets & pillows, all baggage except for what would fit under the seat went into the cargo hold. No overhead bins would also reduce the possibility having to duck a bag a pax is retrieving from the bin & the annoyance of someone getting up & down to get & replace a bag. The stuff they need should be in a bag that will fit under the seat in front of them. There are more pluses than minuses for not having bins or for enforcing the baggage size for carry on & it's a real possibility that could be accomplished but it wouldn't be without it's negative feed back from the customers. The airlines sell a ticket for passage from point A to B not to provide moving services for someones wardrobe.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
If you feel so strongly about a no-bin airline. Start one with your own money. But if you do: You. Will. Lose. Your. Shirt.

There is very little interest in no-bin airlines. It's even ridiculous to suggest. No airline would even try such a thing.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
The idea is to provoke a solution to the problem. Sorry if you didn't realize i was being a bit facetious. I'm cognizant of the fact that a "no -bin" airline would be a drastic action & evoke a negative response from passengers...so what's the solution. Gee here's a novel idea....enforce the carry on baggage policy like it should be enforced....but you'll still upset people. If the bag doesn't fit the template @ the counter or gate then it get's checked...period...no arguing about it. If it doesn't fit under the seat in front of you then it get's checked & put in the cargo hold.
Also having been in the aviation industry since 1966 & having worked for a major airline...there's no way I would want to start an airline. What I would do is start a small cargo carrier. Don't have to have overhead bins, no getting yelled & screamed @ by unruly passengers. Don't have to worry to much about on time performance, etc etc etc.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 0
If it's ridiculous to suggest, why was it successful many years ago when we didn't have enclosed bins & people still flew to their destination & checked their bags. What we have done is we have created our own monster. The aircraft belongs to the airline not the passenger & therefore the airline dictates the policy for carry on baggage etc. The problem is they very seldom enforced this rule except, for the most part, when a flight was full. The policy needs to be one carry on bag period & it must be able to fit under the seat in front of you. I believe the dimensions of the template are 22 X 18 X 10 inches. How many carry on bags do you see fit those dimensions. I can't remember a time when i saw anyone put their bag in the template to see if it would fit. People need to arrive at the airport with plenty of time to check bags, go through security & arrive at the gate in time to board with one carry on that will fit under the seat in front of them.
The old adage that if you "build it they will come" applies here. They put bins on the acft & people began using them to stow their luggage in even when they didn't have to pay for it to be checked. When one airline decided to offer free mileage points for free trips that opened another Pandora's box. Now the airlines give free flights to people & by virtue of that they now charge for baggage to make up for the revenue loss. It may be a nice perk but it cost the airline money & when you see 39 people listed for free upgrades for first class the airline just lost money on each person they upgrade. The airline will figure a way to re-coup those losses. Figure the difference between what the economy tkt cost & what the cost of first class is & multiply that times the number of free upgrades & you will see it's a phenominal amount the airlines are losing.
konatom
T Economou 1
No, no, no....there is no revenue loss due to upgrades. The airlines may be squeezing money from us but they're not stupid. Generally, upgrades are not awarded until a short time before departure, the idea being to firm up their grip on frequent fliers by giving them seats that have not been sold. Dong that frees up a seat in return. Between the two occupied seats perhaps there's a modest reduction in profit but a loss is not in the cards.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That's a completely different issue. You're mixing issues.

But most of those people on the upgrade list would never ever pay for first class in any circumstance no matter what. So the list doesn't represent lost revenue. What it does represent is opportunities to use empty seats to curry favor with passengers. On the flip side those who who routinely pay for first class are put off by the folks who get to partake of first class without paying for it. Which is why you're seeing airlines move toward pasengers having to use points or pay a fee to upgrade. The airlines want to preserve the relationships with those passengers that acriall pay the premium fares to sit up front.

Buy anyway, that an entirely different issue, that is distinct from the carry-on baggage issue of this squawk.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I know my first class comment is different than the posted squawk however i was attempting to show how & why the airlines keep addding different charges & the problems they create for themselves in "whole". Maybe I should see if I can start a new Squawk re first class upgrades. I do disagree with the reasoning re: the upgrades.
konatom
T Economou 1
Now....how wud a paying first class pax know that another one is a free upgrade? Maybe he works for the NSA? Also, the upgrades aren't necessarily a gratis situation. That is a perk awarded for flying many thousands of miles. Lower fares? McDonalds also has low coat but they rake in the dough. Don't believe everything you read. Aloha~
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Bet me. If you didn't pay for it then there's a loss of revenue as an upgrade. Do the math. It also has nothing to do with whether or not someone in first class knows if someone is an upgrade...doesn't matter if they do or not. If you paid $300 for an economy seat & now are upgraded to first which would cost maybe $500 to $700 conservatively...then there's a revenue loss plus the free drinks which people have to pay for in economy class then there's the free meals. Plus the people who paid full first class fare actually paid for the extra amenities which an upgrade did not. Cut it any way you prefer but there's a revenue loss with an upgrade. If someone is upgraded after being seated in economy it's pretty obvious.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
If the seat would've been empty anyway, there is no loss in revenue.

Airline seats like hotel rooms do not collect any revenue when they fly empty or are empty for the night, respectively.

If the airline chooses to upgrade a loyal passenger to a better empty seat, they not only don't lose revenue, the little additional cost to provide the upgraded service may bring more revenue in the future.

The same with hotels. Providing an upgrade to a better but otherwise empty room does not create lost revenue. But the loyalty engendered may create more future revenue more consistently.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Maybe, if the upgrade is after the door closes and even then the revenue loss is minimal. How much does the food and drink actually cost. If the upgrade is before departure, the seat vacated in the upgrade can be sold- even if if someone gets on via standby. In the case of filling with a standby pax, that pax will leave a fillable vacancy on the next flight.

Like at the casino, the house always wins.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Please do start a new squawk on the topic. It would be interesting to follow.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Easy.

Just do a quick search and a find a goo article that takes about the topic. Apparently it seems there would be much interest.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
You don't lose the revenue until you give it away free. If it's sitting empty you haven't lost something but neither have you gained. For every seat in first class that has been given away to an upgrade represents a loss...basic business sense. Now the airline digs into it's own pocket to pay for that persons drinks & meal who may be flying on points that they accrued on their credit card or some other means of getting points they never earned by flying a particular airline. Did someone fly a million miles sitting in coach or first class....doesn't matter. The airline provided the service they paid for plus gave them a bonus to do so ie free miles for travel or an upgrade. Free is free....if you are getting something that you didn't pay for then it's free to you. Thtat's why the airlines are losing money...except for Southwest. I may be wrong but I don't believe that Southwest has first class seating...smart idea & they're making money. If an airline wants to give away free tickets so be it....but for coach with no upgrades & only a very limited number of "free" seats per flight. The airlines are not in business to break even or lose money but that's what happens with the free bees they give away. The bottom line is if the airlines give freebees to every one, whether it be upgrades or checked baggage, then when they enter the "red" on their bottom line they are losing money. Giving something away does not guarantee future revenue. If they upgrade you now are you going to buy a first class ticket on that airline in the future or +a coach tkt...the miles are the same if you are a member of their mileage awards program.....which means that if you always fly coach & earn enough points/miles for an upgrade then you never paid for the first class service you now enjoy for points you accrued flying coach or points you got from your credit card purchases etc.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
1. It seems to me your are confusing revenue forgone with revenue lost. Upgrading a coach pax to 1st class forgoes theorecial revenue of filling the seat with 1st class pax. A pax that books, cancels and books on a different carrier is revenue lost. If the coach pax checked two bags at $25 a pop AND, as a part of the upgrade, had that fee refunded, that is revenue lost.

2. The wholesale cost of airline fare (hard to call it food) is minimal, and is more than covered by the markup charged to the coach marks.

3. The goal of accounting is to minimize taxable income reported to the tax agencies. While the airlines do post gallons of red ink, I think their true financial position is somewhat obscured.

4. 'Giving something away does not guarantee future revenue'- true, but nothing does. I think it's called a loss leader in advartizing. If the policy shifts a single person to select this airline over another, then it has paid for itself. How many cases of diet coke can you buy wholesale for the price of an airline ticket?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
First let's correct some points of fact.

Southwest made nearly $1billion in profits (2013)

United made just over $billion in profits (2013).

American Group made nearly $2billion in profits (2013).

Delta made nearly $3billion in profits (2013).

Allegiant and Spirit are always profitable.

Virgin America move into the profitable column after years of fast growth.

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Whether flight attendants and pilots eat the extra first class meals for free or whether valued frequent fliers eat those same meals for free doesn't change the cost not the revenue.

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The passengers who get a class upgrade, paid for a seat, so the airline is not giving away something for nothing. They're giving away an expiring product (that will no longer exist the next day, nor even after the plane leaves the gate) for a discounted price to a valued costumer.

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The only point where you are not completely wrong, is that there may be a slightly additional cost in premium miles vs standard miles (if the airlines gives out premium miles after giving a free upgrade, which isn't even absolutely necessary). Bug anyway as airlines move to revenue-based miles loyalty programs, even tgAt issue disappears.

There is ZERO cost to making use of an expiring product to either get more revenue or to give extra value to a paying customer who will get more value for their dollar.

Either the airline gets more revenue if they get some money for the upgrade at the last minute fir a seat that would fly empty anyway, or they get loyalty in exchange for the good will when upgrading valued loyal customers for free.

Either way the airline wins by making use of a product that will disappear whether the airlines makes use if it or not.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci -2
Aves Raggiana...seems you have a disdain for Americans in general. This is not the venue to personalize your feelings about any particular countries citizens. I hope you take it upon yourself to not comment in such a manner again & stick to the topic, ie, carry on baggage without personalizing your comments.