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Squawks & HeadlinesBoeing 744 Dreamlifter Mistakenly Lands At Wichita Jabara Airport (KAAO)

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Boeing 744 Dreamlifter Mistakenly Lands At Wichita Jabara Airport (KAAO)

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Flight was supposed to land at McConnell AFB. As of 0247 Zulu, the plane is still on the runway. (www.kwch.com) More...

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Quackers
Quackers 6
Love it disappearing into the fog. Great sight and kudos to the pilots!
cmalaker1
Colin Malaker 3
It was great except for hearing Chris Matthews talking us through it. He is simply the biggest nimrod to grace the airways, and that is saying something since there are so many out there. You know he was crossing his fingers for it to crash and burn so he could have a Dan Rather moment. These talking heads are the scum that graced the bottom of septic tanks. No wait, the bacteria that eat the scum ... Yeah that is more like it. Surprised he did not get tingling up and down his leg
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Such invectives I usually reserve for the person a plurality of my fellow citizens set to misrepresent me in congress. But that's not aviation related either.
smoki
smoki 1
Duh, what? Was that the English language you used in your post? Whatever it was, please provide a comprehensible English translation and then maybe we can know for sure if your post was aviation related or for that matter related to anything at all.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Please accept my apologies. I understand completely why you had trouble understanding my post. I erred in editing. "set" should have been "sent". That should clarify the obscurity.
Thanks for alerting me.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
= "a smallish number of people vote for the dumbasses that are making a mess in Washington D.C."
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I wish I knew where I got these ideas, but I always thought it took a large-ish number to vote them into Washington. Silly me. Feel free to set me straight. I'm so confused.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Voter participation rates are a bit dissappointing. Though I can't guarantee you that those not voting would choose any better if they had. But I'd bet the results would be better if there wasn't as much apathy. An informed electorate wouldn't be as easy to sway with spin. (no matter what your politics happen to be).
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Used to work for a nonprofit called Kids Voting USA. It was a program to teach kids about how their vote would make a difference, taught them how to research the candidates, and they even went to the polls and cast their ballots in special little voting booths we supplied. The curriculum went from K-8. We found the children were actually so excited about it that they would influence their parents into going to the polls and voting. And they were told the next day that if their votes would have actually counted, how the outcomes may have been different. The intent, of course, was to instill in the children a habit that would last a lifetime.
dg1941
Damien Gehler -1
I would like to make you aware that some of us utilise more proper English language than others.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Thanks for posting.
guymed03
Guy Medlock 12
It was loaded down with dreams but they were from light sleepers so runway was sufficient. :-)
dbaker
Daniel Baker 8
Here's an aviation sectional view of the track and the location of the airports: http://i.imgur.com/Tlqt9eP.jpg
RRKen
Kenneth Schmidt 3
Thanks for the map.
murray07
Murray Wilson 2
Wow, that's a LOT of fairly long runways, all lined up in essentially the same direction, in a smallish metropolitan area. Not excusing anything. The pilots must not have briefed the approach and set a mental picture of all the runways they would be seeing (not sure of visibility that night). They must have flown this as an auto-pilot coupled approach; when they got the clearance to land, did they not look at the moving map and see the right drome was miles ahead? Also, the sight picture on short final must have looked wrong - why not go around? Easy for me to arm-chair this as a 300-hour pilot, but I just imagine sitting there with an iPad in my lap saying "ah, guys...keep flying a little farther..."
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, as far as visibility it was VFR, at that time, but from that point on, things get fuzzy and a whole lot not told. Whether 300hrs or 20,000, you are correct, but something did not happen as it should have, for whatever reason.
NighthawkCP
Chris Pippen 7
Beautiful departure!
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 7
Recording from KIAB Tower - some interesting listening

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiab/KIAB-Twr-Nov-21-2013-0300Z.mp3
tbpera
Tom Pera 7
...I worked Sacramento Metro... a few miles east was McClellan AFB...flights from east would accept a visual approach..."airport in sight"... we didn't need radar to see when they were mistakenly lined up with McClellan, in fact, we had a standard ... " United ___, you can start your right turn to enter base leg for Rwy 16"... you'd see the landing lights swing toward Sac Metro and it all worked out...radar?? in the tower, you looked out the windows.. we used this language to keep the pilots out of trouble... we'd then get a sheepish call from the flight crew thanking us... everybody has to monitor the situation.....
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 3
I want to count the F-bombs on the CVR. For anyone listening to this it starts around the 17:30 mark.
hviswanathan
Hari Viswanathan 2
siriusloon
siriusloon 2
JET: "We'll get back to you momentarily. We're not on your approach."

ATC: "McConnell is 9 miles south of you."

JET: "Yes sir, we just landed at the other airport."

(later)

JET: "One more thing, do you have the co-ordinates for this airport?"

(I didn't include the callsigns because they both kept stumbling over it and it wasn't clear which was correct. It doesn't matter for this excerpt anyway.)
preacher1
preacher1 6
I hope somebody gets a video of the takeoff and posts it.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I've been searching for the same thing. It's all been pretty well covered in the news broadcasts but not much detail or footage.

I haven't figured out how to send a personal message through this site. I'm told there is a way, but I'm afraid I survive on the trailing edge of technology. This will have to do, I guess.

I don't have the exact date,but you said it was in the later part of November so:
♪ ♫ ♪♪ ♫ HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU ♫ ♪♪
preacher1
preacher1 1
29th...64...Personal message- go to DISCUSSIONS and click on it. Click on NEW MESSAGES and it will bring up an Email format sorta, but you should be able to pick thru it. TKS for the Bday wishes. I pretty much retired in 09, right before they changed the age 60 rule but came back for this gig. Got all newbies hired but will draw minimum money and maybe do some fill in until spring. That creekbank is looking better all the time. LOL
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Save me a spot. Looks like you have the river right there.
preacher1
preacher1 1
FYI on the private message. You cannot send to a GIVEN NAME. It will only send to a NICKNAME/USER NAME and you just have to check them periodically as it gives you no alert that you have a message waiting.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I had better watch out. You're catching up to me. :-) A reasonable guess and caught you in your birthday week.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I have an old river cutoff that borders my property. LOL. I'll save that spot. Land at KMPJ or over at KRUE and I'll pick you up. LOL.
You know, one thing still puzzles me about this dreamlifter deal though; I have read all these comments and how they are calling it a mistake and all that, but if you get into the remark section of the FA airport info, it is basically a dark airport, with PAPI continually on but lights are MIRL and have to be activated. Am I reading that wrong or is something screwy here?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
No alerts ! what a shame !
No dear preacher1 ?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Others have reported that another plane landed 5 minutes earlier and the lights hadn't tomes out yet. I haven't verified that fact, but it makes sense. Further, that explanation is what I would've figured.

Can't tell whether this was these pilots first trip to McConnel. Unless they were both new, that's unlikely. McConnel is a regular stop for this Dreamlifter, in the service of providing a supply chain for the Dreamliner.

Can't even tell you whether it was their first night approach at thus airport. Again, if both ate not new probably not likely either.

But it may have easily been the first time that Jabara was lit up. The runway lights at Beech and Jabara are likely dark most of the time, since they are low congestion airports.

The lights could've easily been not only welcoming but also disarming; letting the pilots let their guard down just at the sight of them.

It could've been their first flight to McConnel. But I'm thinking that they've been there before, and that the specific circumstances led the pilots to believe that the lit up runway was McConnel. That's how they've could've gotten all the way in there, and only noticed that they were at a short field when they had to stop short at the end if the runway.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Disregard that part of the post about the lights. I asked the same question earlier on down in here and somebody said that a plane landed about 5 minutes ahead of them and lights had not time out. Perfect storm. LOL
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
There have been repeated posts about an incident being the end of a long chain of event links that lead up to it. It seems likely that they were expecting landing lights, saw them and didn't realize they were listening to the siren call of the wrong airport. There's a long history of breakers using false signals to lure ships onto the rocks. Something similar may have happened here, without malice aforethought.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah I saw that about the earlier plane and you could be correct about neither of them being lit up before. If they had already started looking outside rather than their instruments that may have accounted for it. It still seemed like total confusion after they were on the ground though. IDK, I'm just glad it wasn't me. LOL
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 1
High performance takeoff....stay in ground effect....and hope that there's no terrain issues :->
lahtiji
lahtiji 3
No terrain problems, barely any trees. I used to be able to see the rotating beacon at night from my bedroom window, 3 miles away.

[This poster has been suspended.]

CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 1
My intent is not to argue the point, but to provide a forum where ground effect specific to a 747 (the closest I can get to a Dreamlifter) is discussed in detail. Here's the URL:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/185840/

I believe that the reduction in induced drag applies to any airframe, regardless of size.
mariofer
mariofer 1
Unless I am missing something, that post is about landing a 747 not taking off.
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 1
It actually comes into play during both takeoff and landing. Ground effect is a reduction in induced drag imposed on the airframe, and is only relevant at altitudes less than or equal to the wingspan of the aircraft. It happens on all aircraft (all sizes), during takeoff and landing. Some of the posts on the thread mention takeoffs as well as landings.

[This poster has been suspended.]

andr6025
Karl Andrews 1
'You dont [sic] do "short field" take offs in a jet'
So, if you happen to find yourself on an actual, physical 'short field' ....
stewartmatthew
Stewart Haddad 1
The local TV stations will be all over this...check with www.kake.com for video
DMACDP
DMACDP 5
Oh.... I can hear the pain in the voice of the pilot when he realizes the mistake. Big mistake but you have to feel for the guy.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 5
A 747 with an hour of gas should have no issue with 6,100 feet. Also the dreamliner components are mostly just volume and not weight, correct? Better dust off my resume for Atlas.
Quackers
Quackers 5
No harm no foul. Boeing, with some good PR, can probably turn this into a great little piece about how capable of a performer the dreamlifter is by filming the takeoff etc. (Sort of like that 737 that landed on that bern in Florida near NASA facilities in the 80's)
pthomas745
Pa Thomas 5
And which air traffic facility ignored the Low Altitude Alerts that were pinging for several minutes? Sure, the pilots made a big mistake, but they got no help from ATC here. Did the IAB local controller even look out the window?
preacher1
preacher1 5
Kudos to Boeing and the Atlas pilots. They made it look like a piece of cake
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
After going back and forth a couple times with coordinates of Beech airport and the plane's, the controller comes back couple minutes later 'Did you make a circle around the airport and take a look or did you go straight in?' 'Straigt in, sir'.

You could almost hear the exasperation as the reality of the situation sunk in.

I feel for them. They clearly seem like very competent aviators (putting an oversized 747 cargo on a 6 grand runway in the dark on a visual approach when they were expecting 12 grand).

They just made a mistake. They may have rejected the contradictory info from the automation and just flew the plane. There have been 2 recent accidents when pilots didn't fly the plane while relying on automation. The first crew lived (Asiana) but all their passengers dudn't. The second crew didn't survive the crash (UPS). I can gladly say these pilots are alive, their plane intact, with no one else injured and no major other damage, other than to their reputation.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
The article states no one was hurt and nothing damaged - except I'll wager, the pilot's egos. (But the take-off is something to behold! That behemoth doesn't look like it should be able to get off the ground. Amazing.)
offroad437
kevin murry 1
that was in new orleans
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Conditions at the time were 10 and clear. Even under IFR, it's all on the pilot. Then the airports were eight miles apart. There was other traffic in the area at the time as a turboprop attempted to land at AAO while the 744 was sitting on the runway talking to IAB.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Could he have possibly closed his flight plan and landed just off the PAPI, which it is showing them continuously on? He would have had to activate the lights. idk. Something is screwy here somewhere.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I can't imagine why they'd close it going into a towered field. Most operations running even light jets have a mandatory OP of flight under IFR without exception.
preacher1
preacher1 1
You are very correct. idk. The whole thing is just strange
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
Some folks rely on automation too much. Others are so comfortable flying without automation, that they may brush off some easily available automation.

KAAO is right under the approach to McConnell AFB. They were flying visually so they clearly visualized the wrong runway, when they were cleared to land. They shut out all the other info and just flew the plane.

They figured out real quick that they were on the wrong field when they were hitting the runway and realized they'd have to stop short.

You can deal with all the fallout of landing at the wrong field afterward, but in the heat of the moment they just did what they had to do and flew the plane and got her down safely and without any damage to the plane or the field. It is of utmost importance not to damge the plane. Boeing's 787 production schedule is dependent on these 4 giant cargo planes. Unexpectedly damaging one would wreck the production and delivery schedule.

Time to start building more of them (as back-up for now and to be able to increase production of this aircraft and others such as the 777X.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Which highlights the fragility of a society dependent upon Just-In-Time processing for critical functions.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
As they spread out production globally, they need more Dreamlifters built and available.
mdlacey
Matt Lacey 1
It was near the NASA Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans.
RichMac1
Richard Macdonald 4
Time for JATO!
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 4
Hey Look! A pregnant 747-800! When is it due? Wrong hospital?
jeffvdub
Jeffrey Goodmanson 4
how does 2 ATC facilities miss that the aircraft is well below the descent mins for the RNAV 19L?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 4
Great job! Estimated wheels up at just over 5,000 feet.

And locals thought they had just been given a permanent static display. ;-)
99NY
99NY 3
Hah, "Result Unknown"
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Diverted?, that's one way of spinning it.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Close to midnight. Shift change? nobody paying attention? Update from the TV up there and in the story is that it is supposed to take off at noon CST.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -6
On behalf of all the women who have ever been or ever will be pregnant - not funny.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 4
A woman is bigger than normal when she is carrying new but undelivered life inside of her. A dreamlifter 747 is bigger than normal when it is carrying new but undelivered 787's inside of it. What could be a better metaphor? Just too comfortable in life and need something to complain and whine about like most of the PC US?
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
Guess my sense of humor is broken... I am still laughing
preacher1
preacher1 4
With all due respect Miss Donna, PREGNANT GUPPY was the name given to an early version prop transport, a Boeing 307 I think, that was used by NASA and USAF for years. It was further modified and is now a SUPER GUPPY, so it has a precedent. LOL
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -1
hahahha so you're saying the

"dreamlifter 747 is bigger than normal when it is carrying new but undelivered 787s inside of it"

- which would have to mean when it's empty it's smaller?

Oh nevermind - I understand what you're saying and a few others. And frankly, the world's a far more interesting place when we all have our own opinions.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 2
Really Donna? Don't put Musketeer1 down! Whether it be Military, in every group, or in Commercial Aviation.General Aviation...we always refer to the aircraft or ship as a "she". It's been that way for as long as I can remember and I, personally, being a woman, take pride in the metaphor. It gives the aircraft or ship character. It is not being disrespectful. There is a pride and a bond that one has for the aircraft or ship. Example: USS Arizona. Those souls who lived that fateful day on that ship will forever go to sleep with her.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -1
Where do you get the idea my comment had anything to do with the designation of "she" ?
Doobs
Dee Lowry 3
You didn't. Your comment that said, " On behalf of all the women who have ever been or ever will be pregnant- not funny". I'm a woman and I have been and please don't speak on my behalf. I resent the fact that you are throwing out your "it's all about my opinion" attitude. Leave the gender out of this equation...it doesn't have anything to do about the "Dreamlifter". She's a "Big Girl"...get over it! Are you that PC about an airplane?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal -1
for dear friends Donna and Dee ,

Dear friend Donna Peterson, I admire your sense of humour and ability to pun !
The way you compared/correlated change of size(or girth/weight) after 'delivery' !
In fact no one should go beyond the pun you created.
Deliberately or inadvertently !
Personally I will go with first option !
In the same breath I will refer to what our dear friend Dee Lowry said by using 'she' for aircrafts and ships.
If that be so, do we(though mostly men) not create jokes about these machines around some of conventional feminine behaviour ?
So dear Dee Lowry, why bring women into it ? Other than feminineness of the two machines.
So where is the Q of any unpleasantness ?
Sit back and enjoy the squawks for what ever they are worth.
No dear friend Dee Lowry ?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I made no reference to a problem using the term "she" nor do I have a problem with it for any mode of transportation, be it trains, plans and / or automobiles. "Friend Dee Lowry" is chasing ghosts. I have too much respect for the site to get into my theory of the why.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -1
Calm down Dee, you're getting yourself all worked up over a non-issue. Relax before your head explodes.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 2
I'm just peachy. This is not a forum to rip people apart because they don't agree with your radical and PC opinions. Stick with the program. I have a choice to accept or not to accept an opinion but to be honest with you...you push the envelope if it doesn't go your way and you fly off the handle. I feel you have to come down to earth and try to accept criticism and learn from it so you can be apart of a civil discussion.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -1
Look, Dee, realistically you're the one who came along and attempted to rip me apart because you didn't agree with my opinions. Now if you want to continue this insane rant of yours take it to the private discussion and I'll consider responding. It has no place here. Get a grip.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 3
You know, Donna...neither of us are doing any favors to the squawkers that, most likely, have something relative and educational to contribute on the topic at hand. Therefore, I am going to bail out of this and think about the "Topic" I have a lot repect for these "Squawkers. Goodnite.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Where did you see that in her post??? I read it a few times and don't see it...
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 4
Imagine a little girl standing next to her pregnant mom. Seeing the Dreamlifter, and pointing, the little girl could be heard saying 'Look Ma. The plane is pregnant too."

Then later as they offload the the 787 fuselage. 'Oh, look at the baby plane. It's coming out.'

I don't know that I could correct the little girl's comments. Nor would I feel any need to do so. The comments would be totally innocent, and would in fact demonstrate empathy.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
ha ha ha ha
dear friend PhotoFinish, what a great spontaneity !
thumbs up to you.
cmalaker1
Colin Malaker 0
Cat Fight!!!! Go get the pillows!!! Hahahaha. Just kidding gals. I am sure there are guys out there that have pillow fights as well.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -1
Yeah, kind of like the reality TV series Real Housewives...this one, Real Housewives of FlightAware. Shameful.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 1
There go my words again...always making me look stupid! ;)
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Oh well, it's all in good fun, isn't it. (Usually.)
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -6
Yes, but that was before when people weren't sensitive to inappropriate titles or comments. Come on. Those were back in the days when Polish jokes were considered all right as well. I respectfully disagree. But I still like you. hehehe
preacher1
preacher1 3
I thank you for the like but I am getting old enough now to get set in my ways and while I try to be nice, I find myself having little use for the PC crowd and those easily offended. All I can say is for them to GET OVER IT. LIFE ISN"T FAIR EITHER. If the joke is on you, then laugh about it rather than get PO'd and take offense. If I genuinely offend somebody, I'll be the first to apologize but past there, tuff. LOL. BTW, you still got family in Hot Springs?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 0
Re the Hot Springs - no. My mom became ill so they sold their house in The Village and moved out to Arizona so I could help out. That's prior to my re-lo to Seattle. Beautiful spot though.

About the rest of your message, I agree to a point - all things can be taken too far. I have to admit I still appreciate a door being held open for me, etc. But I have a limit, just like you. Unfortunately, there are those who think anything whatsoever to do with PC is over the top. I'm not one of them. Some things are just obviously wrong, and to quote a guy who calls himself preacher1 - that's IMHO.
preacher1
preacher1 3
Well, I can deal with that but most of what I lump in the PC crowd are those that are so thin skinned that a falling leaf will get them and that take issue with anything said just because somebody else said it. They are tolerant of others as long as others agree with them. If it comes to that, I just like agree to disagree and move on. And that's IMHO. LOL
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Point taken.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Back in those days- that was 1963....
The USS Thresher sank-
John Kennedy declared he was a jelly donut in Berlin- assassinated later that year

a few attitudes have changed since then-
a few have not.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -3
What is "too comfortable" I wonder.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 1
I think basically it starts with unlimited drinking water, working sewage, electricity, and never being hungry. The too comfortable part I think is working by sitting down all day (I'm a pilot and completely aware of the hypocrisy), followed by sitting down all night watching TV/Computer, followed by laying down all night; during all this there are never any real problems.

As for financially too comfortable, I wish I knew ;)
harrym4110
Harry Marks 3
Oh for God's sake! grow up!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum -5
If you were able to become pregnant, and did, you'd understand the comment. Now - about your manners!
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Now... That would be funny and I would laugh even harder.. ROLF thinking about it! @@
treehouse4rent
Carlos Bea 6
So easy to be judgmental.........

The fact is, it is very easy to deviate unintentionally from an instrument profile on a clear night when ones eyes can fixate on the first runway that appears in front of you & miles from where you want to go. Ones guard is usually a little lower when the weather is so nice leading to a "relaxation" of sticking to instrument approach protocols as likely occurred here.

It is at such times that you must tell yourself to stick to the instrument profile all the way down regardless of the inviting airports that may appear beforehand .

Unfortunate.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 6
And it gets worse. Tug sent to move Dreamlifter breaks down on the highway

https://twitter.com/KWCH12NDBrian/status/403432811442364416/photo/1
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 18
I thinks cops pulled him over because there is no front license plate. The hatch is open because R2D2 got out and is explaining the plate went missing on a tour of the moon of Endor. The cop is not buying it, nor the story of an oversized 747 is waiting for him on the runway at Jabara airport.
lchaneypdx
Luke Chaney 4
No front license plate required in state of Kansas.
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 2
Hey, no heckling the comedian. This is not the Catskills.
clearfortakeoff83
Zach Katona 5
Wow you know your luck is bad when the tug breaks down after the initial incident lol.
mblank
Yosemite Sam 2
How do you "mistake" a single 6100 ft runway for dual (L,R) 12,000 ft. runways? Somebody had
their cranium stuck in their anal aperture.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Easy... Just as any woman who gets lost after telling them to take a turn 2 miles down the road an turns off at 1 mile down the road and then gets lost. :)
mblank
Yosemite Sam 2
You like to live on the edge, don't you?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
you can say that again for sparkie624, my dear friend Yosemite Sam.
People like sparki 624 love to live dangerously. Mere adventure bores them .
(no offence meant to you dear friend sparkie624)
;p
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Hmmm... Did my comment spark some interest... LOL.. Just using an example.. Everyone know the reputation of women when giving directions... I used to be married to one... Give her a map to go next door and she would get lost./
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
LOL - you love to throw out the bait, don't you.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Our friend sparkie624 loves the taste of bullets , hence he keeps biting them so often.
As for interest, dear friend sparkie624 ? Your user id is enough to spark off interest.
;p
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Sparkie624, if you're going to walk on the razor's edge, tapdance with elan.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
You silly guys. It's sexism in reverse. The woman gave the directions properly, the guy driving didn't listen and turned at the wrong place. He's the one who got lost. Boys and girls both get lost - equality at its finest.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Dear friend Donna Peterson, men generally misread directions given by women.
But they both end up correctly. How ? I do not know.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
ha ha ha
how dare you ?
sexist !
;p
brace up for brickbats ! Dear friend sparkie624 .
rcall3
Robert Call 3
The DreamLifters routinely use the 7000' runway 3/21 at KCHS even when loaded. In fact, they have probably used it more often than the main 9000' runway 15/33 which was recently reopened after a a year of refurbishment work.
Ruger9X19
Ruger9X19 3
And they're gone. Nice Joob!
CtYank66
CtYank66 3
"there but for the grace of.............."
Wake up 0630am, kids getting ready for school, work in yard all morning, around 3pm take nap, 4pm neighbor gets leaf blower going, nap ends, oh well, it's only a 3hrs flight, 7pm dinner with family, 8pm start packing, shower, etc, 10pm say good byes to family and leave for the 90 mins+ drive to JFK, get to ops around midnite, usual stuff, then wait for ride to the jet, 2am takeoff, finally, 6th cup of coffee, 2hrs. and 6 more cups later brief for arrival, hey, no sweat, hotel bed is less than 90 mins away, wow look to our left and see runway, final check, line up on runway, hmmm?? oh well, lights must be off on ramp, Gov. closed again, 'nice landing Capt.' wow auto brakes off, push those pedals! WTF??? Typical night for "freight dogs" 'this is the life you have chosen!'
LtRob
Rob Murdoch 3
Back in the mid-80's we landed at Keesler AFB in a KC-135Q. As we taxied to parking, a grizzled old transient maintenance crew met the plane. We shut down engines, debarked (I was ground crew), and they came over to us. First words from his mouth was "Ya'll ain't s'posed to be here". We explained we diverted for weather, etc. He promptly said we weren't supposed to have that AIRPLANE there. The flight crew forgot to check the runway requirements for the turbojet powered 135, and we were several hundered feet short! Details of the takeoff configuration are fuzzy (to protect the innocent!), but I remember the crew having multiple phone calls back to base and conferenced with both Air Force and Boeing engineers. I do remember putting the lightest fuel load on a 135 I ever heard of!
dg1941
Damien Gehler 1
And this is unfortunately the way that commercial aviation works. It is correct that such things happen that way. One thing you may add for some carriers is pushing duty times.
hviswanathan
Hari Viswanathan 4
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiab/KIAB-Twr-Nov-21-2013-0330Z.mp3
"We have a gentleman outside our aircraft".
Lol, a dude at the airport must have been sure an alien just landed and must have approached it with his hands up in the air saying "we surrender".
mjsracing1
Steve Shaw 2
I must admit I've been 50% guilty of the same thing. I've lined up on final but realized my mistake before touchdown. And yes, I sheepishly looked around to see if anybody saw the mistake in progress. But all this was in a 172, not a Dreamlifter. Big difference.........BIG DIFFERENCE.............same mistake.
bbabis
bbabis 2
This was a huge lapse in situational awareness, but stand by. All a pilot will have to say is that they were a little tired and we will see the FAA and NTSB somehow weave this into their BMI decrees on pilots and controllers.
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 2
At LEX, Dubai Air Wing's 747's go in and out just fine on 7000 ft. If this thing was empty, and with only the necessary fuel needed to get out of there, it shouldn't be a problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYzF5kLLWHk
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 2
I guess when you are flying something that big everything just looks smaller...hence they went with the short RW.

It is surprising that traffic control did not warn them farther in advance or that some cockpit alarms did not alert them to the mistake unless the wrong airport info was loaded into the plane's auto pilot from the get go....hence the CP request for GPS info after the fact.
Wayne47
Michael Townsley 2
If the Dream Lifter easily handles the short field takeoff...Boeing is likely going to receive a huge PR benefit which it would otherwise cost millions to achieve if they had to buy the advertising placement.
mariofer
mariofer 2
Wheels up!
grinch59
Gene Nowak 2
He made it!!!
eichmat
Tim Eichman 2
Ok--she's off the ground... back to work everyone :) Oh, and the new crew does know where to go now, right? :P
Darryl80
Darryl White 2
She just touched down at McConnell.
simkatu
AJ Simkatu 2
And now it's successfully landed at KIAB (McConnell AFB).
AABABY
FRANK MARTINOLI 2
Just to lighten your day--- <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD1MW-nyhxg&feature=share>;

Are you there Atlasair?
AZ942
Tony Galvez 2
Some times in a pilot career this happens like forgetting to lower the landing gear. In both instances I can remember doing both. For me it was not staying "ahead" of the airplane. I was a new pilot then so "it" can happen to any pilot who does not practice situational awareness.
lsharpe69
lsharpe69 2
Been there done that. Sort of. Landed at wrong airport while passenger on US Navy C-9 (military DC-9). This was many moons ago as in cold war. Flight was Pensacola NAS, FL to Whidbey Island NAS, WA. Not sure why we needed fuel stop in Kansas (or was it in OK?). No matter, normal stops were at AFBs. This stop was at GA airport. Folks on ground sure were surprised to see us taxi in. Even more to see 40 or so exit plane and look for bathroom and food! They had a Cessna Center there with sunglasses and that's about all I remember. I think pilots whipped out USN credit card for fuel. They only had avgas so we jumped back on plane and hopped over to local AFB. There were a few chuckles among us on board. Other than that it was no big deal (to us anyway). Pilots probably got slap on the wrist! Ah, the good ole days.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Back to work... LOL, I would rather find something else to goof off with... They said MIN FUEL... Wonder if the cameras are in place for a Dead Stick Landing.. LOL!
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Not working... WOrked for a few minutes... Guess they are going to miss it. Too many on the server I guess.
preacher1
preacher1 1
There was a track posted on here by Brian Bishop. They were filed and all.
Darryl80
Darryl White 1
Yep. Next stop is Dead Cow International!
preacher1
preacher1 1
As I said in an earlier comment, it has happened quite a bit, but not in a DREAMLIFTER. Had it been any other plane, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. There were plenty of folks that have chimed in here about doing it or being on one as a pax when it happened. Private or 121, it hasn't mattered. LOL
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I heard someone posted a link to live streaming video of a small Wichita station on flightaware, and that the resultant viewership from all over the world may have overwhelmed their servers.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I just saw something about a delay.
preacher1
preacher1 1
any details and where did you hear it at?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I'm not sure, now. I've seen several sources as well as the tidbits on Fox News on the big monitor always running. I should be doing work for my business but I'm shirking my responsibilities for everything but keeping the coffee cup full.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Your C-9 was not one of just four in the world, looked like a 'normal' airplane, and was waaaay before U-tube.... 8-)
lsharpe69
lsharpe69 2
Not sure where I said there were only 'four'. The whole point of the post was to say 'I've landed at the wrong airport before'. It happened because I was there. The only fact I will defend. Ur right. Back then we didn't have time to waste with comments on web sites. My generation was to busy developing innovative technologies, like the Internet. I was using the net before W95 was released. I was probably writing code before most people on here were born. Wisdom comes with age. Peace.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Sorry for the misunderstanding. To my understanding, there are but 4 dreamlifters in service, which would make them far more unusual that the C-9. It was meant as 'it was a different time'. I still have a 3-hole punched copy of K&R C Programming Language from when it first came out. Lots of languages since then.
Age comes with age, wisdom with learning from one's misatkes.
and peace be with you as well.
lsharpe69
lsharpe69 2
Good to see there are other technology fossils still around. Nice to see someone on this site who is not name-calling or arguing too. Maybe we could lead by example here. Keep av8n.
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 3
The aircraft is tail number N780BA, owned by Boeing, and left JFK bound for IAB. They landed a little short at 37.7394, -97.2224. Jabara Airport. Hmm, maybe the fellas should stay there a few days. The Seabee's could come with the Caterpillars and concrete and add 3,600 feet to the North end of the runway.

While waiting for the concrete to cure, they could attend classes to brush up on navigation at the National Center for Aviation Training which on the airport property. Perhaps a member of the Freshman class could ride in the jump seat, just to make sure they get to McConnel AFB, nine miles away.
yr2012
matt jensen 1
Well, they could unload it and run it back out empty. But not right away - winter storm warning today.
preacher1
preacher1 1
More than likely it came in empty if it was to pick up at Spirit. It may have had raw material on it, but one of the posts up above said they routinely use the 7 grand at Charleytown, getting off loaded.
simkatu
AJ Simkatu 1
It came in from Italy to JFK before Wichita, most likely bringing back the horizontal wing from Italy factories and on its way to Spirit to pick up additional cargo (fuselage) to take back to Seattle.
siriusloon
siriusloon 3
How soon before we see the screaming graphic on TV: "Dreamlifter Nightmare"?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
It seems the landing pilots picked about the only time frame in the last 24 hours when weather was 10 and CLR.

They really screwed this one up. I don't care how damn clear it is. There is simply no reason to not have GPS loaded when flying into, out of or around an airport. They were going into a Class Charlie handling several airports adding to the importance of situational awareness.

They will most likely get a 709 ride with at least a dang good oral involving situational awareness. If the company doesn't can them, it will be a miracle. This was a costly event for them.

Shortly after landing, they indicate a turboprop passing over. It's a miracle there was no crash from that. Luckily it was clear for the turboprop's sake.
N155KT
N155KT 2
what's even scarier, is that they first said they were on the ground at KBEC (Beech Airport).
preacher1
preacher1 3
What really seems strange to me is that there appears to be no ATC radio prior to them being down at KAAO, at least not that has been posted.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
There's a link below to the recording.
Here it is:
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiab/KIAB-Twr-Nov-21-2013-0300Z.mp3

The plane 'giant' is cleared for landing. Then they continue talking to McC tower when both realize they've landed shirt at the wrong airport.

The next half hour has a continuation of the night's event.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiab/KIAB-Twr-Nov-21-2013-0330Z.mp3
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
If LiveATC.net is recording history for IAB, they might have it.

I've not been on that site in so long I can't even recall my login to find out.
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 1
only 3,000' planned? Why not go to 40000' :):):)
N155KT
N155KT 1
7 minutes after saying they were at Beech, the DreamLifter pilot asks if there is a "tower frequcncy for this airport" ("tower is now closed"). . . and then asks McConnell if they have the GPS coordinates for Beech airport. They had no clue where they were.

DreamLifter gave McConnell their GPS coordinates W(since they didn't match what McConnell had given them for Beech), and ATC cuts out after that, but I'm guessing McConnell then advised them there were actually at Jabara (KAAO)
N155KT
N155KT 6
ya know I was thinking, hey Mr "giant" airplane pilot, pull out your iPhone, hit Google Maps, and look where the little blinking blue dot says you are . . . duh
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 5
And while you're there make a post on flightaware. Lol
smokinghole
smokinghole 2
I can't believe these guys fly a 747. They sound completely inept on this audio clip. Glad they didn't kill anybody last night. Scary....

https://soundcloud.com/buzzfeednews/747-lands-at-wrong-kansas
cmalaker1
Colin Malaker 1
I have a question. What were they hauling to the Air Force Base? Was it highly classified parts or something? Alien spacecraft wreckage? Somebody call Mulder and Scully and let's get to the bottom of this
marvd777
Marvin De Vera 1
Deja Vu! Didn't a C-17 do that before at another airport?
rarebasses
Steve Workman 1
I have almost made this same mistake while landing at Beech, but realized I was lined up on AAO a few miles out. At night while visual when AAO is lit and all the other AP's are lit it can get confusing. I feel for these guys!
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Good thing the runway is concrete and not asphalt. I bet they lighten it up and blast off.
SoarLasVegas
David Phillips 1
The basics. The basics. The basics.
Thumpkady
Steve Kady 1
Great stuff. WRONG HEADLINE!
armoredcav
armoredcav 1
Back in late 70's early 80's similar thing happened when airliner landed at Troutdale Airport instead of Portland Int, a couple miles away. Same runway headings, just a little short of the right one. Had to unload a/c, take baggage and seats out to get in air again. Embarrassing but it happens more than we want to admit in general aviation service. It just brings out the cameras when it is a heavy a/c, especially this one. Time for a check ride I guess.
lahtiji
lahtiji 1
3 miles from my childhood home. Trying to see if I can locate live streaming from any of the network affiliates' noon broadcasts because I'm sure they've got news vans and camera crews there in force.

If anyone locates a source for a live video stream, please share!
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Had to have been a great landing at Jabara, although he stood on the brakes as there are major skids on the concrete at the very end of the runway. It's amazing that the runway held up so well considering the dreamlifters weight as well as its payload. Take-off looked like it was text-book. Dump the fuel, lock the brakes, throttle up, release and off she goes. Good job.
duke69111
J A 1
Here's my video from Greenwich of take off. Change it to 1080p. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swTjsxM7WW4
wadesworld
Wade Williams 1
Anyone know a way to find the flight plan for this flight? I'm curious to see what the last point was.
BluegrassFlyer
Randy Michel 1
When that thing spooled up, I thought that this would be a classic Joe Patroni moment, like the scene when he throttled that 707 out of the mud.
chalet
chalet 1
Inexcusable, unforgivable mistake, McConnell is a verly large airport, it has two active runways whereas Jabara and Beech are much smaller and have only one runway. Now what punishment, well the piltos shall be fired right on the spot ditto the controllers at McConell who cleared the plane too land without checking the radar screen and double check with binoculars the approaching huge BIG aircraft. Enough is enough.
jwebber121
Jerrold Webber 1
Unfortunately large planes landing at wrong airports isn't all that uncommon. Remember that in July 2012 an Air Force C-17 cargo plane landed at Peter O. Knight airport near Tampa FL. in stead of MacDill AFB a few miles away. Again, same set-up, similar runway headings and a little bit of in-complacency on the part of the pilots. Sloppy piloting can lead to disaster, fortunately both these incidents turned out well.
sydreamcatcher
Charles J Stutz 1
Thought US pilots were the best trained in the world and the only ones to be allowed to land at certain airports at night…Great take-off though! Congratulations.
tskubal
Thomas Skubal 1
Flying Magazine's report with ATC audio below. Wow, good think these guys were wheels stopped as they tried to figure out the error. They were seriously thrown off. http://www.flyingmag.com/news/boeing-747-dreamlifter-lands-wrong-airport-giant-blunder?cmpid=enews112113&spPodID=030&spMailingID=18178462&spUserID=NDkwOTU0NjgzOQS2&spJobID=238274944&spReportId=MjM4Mjc0OTQ0S0
fhopper
Frank Hopper 1
I wish someone would have mentioned who Colonel James Jabara was. I believe he was the first jet ace. My father was in a plane with him once and Jabara asked my dad what he thought the tail number on a plane in the distance was... my dad said what plane. It is all about the eyes!
AABABY
FRANK MARTINOLI 1
Just curious, Didn't the repositioning require a flight plan? I know it's a short hop to original destination, but as has been pointed out, there are many airports & airstrips around Wichita.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Personally, the DREAMLIFTER is gone, unscathed. Landing crew is probably back at the front office and we have heard about all we are gonna hear about this deal. I'm outa here.
Rsutcliffe
Ronald Sutcliffe 1
Ops sorry about the wrong airport stuff in Wichita, Kansas!

Dust off your Resume's Pilots!

We have some Oil Field Truck driving jobs here in West Texas, driving 18 wheeler's if you know how to measure the height of the load with a (Inch USA Ruler) and don't run into a Overhead Bridge on the Interstate 20! 13 Overhead Bridges and Overpasses hit in the last calendar year!

Have a Better Day for Sure!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I'll probably be bombarded with negative replies but I'll roll the dice - I'm ignorant of almost 100% of the technical issues, but I'm wondering why they flew in another crew for the take-off. Is it the required time off or something else???
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Here is a link to a news indicating what flying skills can be , under trying situations.

http://atwonline.com/safety/boeing-dreamlifter-reaches-destination-after-mistaken-landing?NL=ATW-04&Issue=ATW-04_20131121_ATW-04_478&YM_RID=anilmittal.1945@gmail.com&YM_MID=1434820&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2


" Boeing Dreamlifter reaches destination after mistaken landing "
" .... The aircraft was initially stranded at Jabara Airport, which has one, 6,101 foot long runway, more than 3,000 feet shorter than is recommended for a Dreamlifter takeoff

After Boeing made careful calculations that the aircraft could take off safely Thursday, a replacement crew flew the Dreamlifter from Jabara Airport to McConnell Air Force base—about a 20-minute journey—where it was slated to unload its cargo, Boeing said. ...... "

Landing safely on a runway short by 3000 ft. or so !
Still unimaginable, taking off from same runway short by over 3000 ft. ! And as I have learnt, an aircraft needs more length for take off than for landing .
My salute to you, the ace pilots.
simkatu
AJ Simkatu 1
KAKE twitter feed says 1pm is new time.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I don't remember what airline it was, but back in the 80's someone put an 8 in Poughkeepsie instead of Stewart. 6000 ft. vs 12000 ft. on the wrong side of the river.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
A barely 2 days old squawk and already 320 comments(mine being 321st).
Does this qualify for the 'Most Popular' squawk award ?
crk112
crk112 1
Wow they make too big a deal out of these things
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
From KAKE.com

WICHITA, Kans. - A Boeing jet is sitting on the runway at Wichita's Jabara Airport - and may be stuck there for awhile.

Witnesses say a Boeing 747 LCF Dreamlifter landed at Jabara Wednesday night. The cargo plane may be there by mistake, but FAA officials have yet to confirm details.

KAKE News has confirmed Boeing is sending a tug to Jabara Airport to turn around the jet. But the tug can only travel ten miles per hour, so the process may take several hours.

Several people tell KAKE News the Dreamlifter is too large for the Jabara runway. It also may be too big for Jabara's 6,100-foot runway.

The Wichita Airport Authority tells KAKE News it is assembling a "packet of information" for the media, concerning what happened.

The jet reportedly is owned Atlas Air of Purchase, New York.

Wichita emergency crews say they were not sent to the airport, so apparently no one was injured in the landing.

This is a developing story; watch for updates as we get them.
JohnBode
John Bode 1
Many blame automation for this and other accidents, even those still under investigation. In my opinion, in most cases, when the automation is properly configured, it performs well. For example, if they were actually flying the GPS approach with a coupled autopilot, it would have landed at the right airport. But there lies the problem. Flying is complicated and automation just adds to the complexity. It's all too easy to misconfigured the systems. I recall the Korean airplane pilot that simply punched in the wrong numbers into the auto pilot and was shot down over Russia. I can't count the number of times I've misconfigured the glass panel in one way or another, or at least not configured it optimally. I am still a believer in advanced avionics, but we must double and triple check the configuration. And even then, keep a close eye on what it's doing.
Lontony
Tony Long 1
Like many of you I was really impressed with this takeoff...skillful. Well done!
mpradel
Marcus Pradel 1
Hey, at least the runway was wide enough and the lighting on the sides didn't rip up the main gear tires on the DreamLifter.. THAT would've been a bear to repair on the field!
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I wonder if the pilots knew the length constraints of the runway BEFORE they took clearance from the ATC at Jabara(KAAO) ? And if the ATC and pilots concerned shared B744 constraints vis-a-vis those of runway with each other ?
Any feedback available at this nascent stage ?
Or is it a dumb Q ?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Oops!

Someone convince me these pilots of such a bird were not equipped with GPS.

Surely, surely... such professionals would have all resources loaded with the data to insure they had the best possible situational awareness and went into an airport they probably had never seen before. Right?
latinpilot
juan Malave 1
Ok the crew fail to setup the app and screw it saying that they were in, but also the controller didn't noticed with the radar that they were going to the wrong airport, why clear to land the heavy without paying attention to his job. Both were wrong
AABABY
FRANK MARTINOLI 1
Lots of commentary about various aspects. Does anyone know how much runway was actually used for the landing? And the takeoff? Details, details.
CHBHA
CB HARDY 1
We expect guys who fly jumbos can't make simple mistakes. Unfamiliar aircraft have landed at Smyrna, Tn bound for Nashville, which is 10 miles west, but similar runway alignment.
bizjets101
biz jets 1
Believe departure around Noon local time (1 1/2 hours from now).
JohnBode
John Bode 1
All pilots, without exception, make mistakes. As far as mistakes go, if you can walk away from it then it wasn't so bad. I guess big plane equals big mistake. For the pilots out there, try plotting yourself in the pilots seat. Your looking at the GPS approach plate. Unlike the Jabara approach plate that shows the other runways in the area, the McConnell plate only shows the McConnell runway. Sure you could have checked other sources, but this was a fairly routine landing. Then all of a sudden there's a very brightly lit runway right n front of you. Sure you could have checked DME, but there's the runway and it looks perfect so you land. Then almost immediately you see the end of the runway so you apply full reverse thrust and slam on the brakes, leaving some pretty serious skid marks.
dg1941
Damien Gehler 1
This same thing happened in North Dakota about forty years ago when an NWA 727 was flying KMSP-KJMS. The 727 mistook the Barnes County Municipal airport's 3100 ft. runway for Jamestown Regional's 5500 ft. runway. The FO and FE noticed the mistake at about the same time on final and the crew executed a touch and go. From what I have heard of the incident, the crew were suspended for the investigation and afterwards dismissed from the airline. A further calculation between a few 757 captains, a 747 FO, and myself was conducted and we found that the aircraft would have been stranded at the airstrip. NWA would have had to remove the galley, the pax seats, the overhead bins, the FE and FO's seats, and taken off with less than 500 lbs of fuel.
ckevinhamel
Kevin Hamel 1
Years ago I rode an American commercial flight in and out KSBA.... I think it was an MD-80. Basically slammed in on the ground for landing, and my trip out a week later watched the end of the runway slip past maybe two seconds past rotation. While I was there I noted that there was a company there that refurbishes 747s. So, I know that big jets like that are capable of a 6000 foot runway at sea level. Maybe completely empty and running on fumes, but capable. Getting it out of KAAO will be interesting at 1400 feet elevation.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
WARNING WARNING WARNING - ENTIRELY OFF THREAD: Is anyone else receiving emails of a Squawk Reply Notification only to discover there actually is no new posting? It's been happening to me quite a lot today, more than usual. Or am I just missing them? (Apologies to anyone this might annoy.)
AndrewDiamond
Andrew Diamond 1
Military airfields have a split rotating beacon. I would think that would have been the first clue, way out on a VMC night.
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 1
It took off safely 500 mau mau time
preacher1
preacher1 1
Update from TV KAKE at Wichita:
WICHITA, Kan. -- UPDATE 11:40 a.m. The Dreamlifter was scheduled to take off around noon, but that will likely be delayed. No new time has been given
Lee1209
JOhn LEe 1
It took off safely
Luisaaexpomex
Luis Orpinell 1
They are in similar course, what king, or because 2 terminals simultaneously activated system approximation. JABARA, I had to be off.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=685689178116668&set=a.336061813079408.86316.258096140875976&type=1&relevant_count=1
preacher1
preacher1 1
All textbook for short field takeoff. Didn't even strain. Of course I wasn't sitting in the left seat so I will not attest to it's condition. LOL. I can imagine there are some relieved folks at Boeing and Atlas.LOL
ICIT
ICIT 1
The way ICIT: Since we know that these pilots will NEVER make this mistake again, and they obviously know how to land this machine with super skills, a suggestion is a refersher training course in ground school 101. This training, while it might be somewhat demeaning, would give them the refresher training that covers this very topic on flight planning. They made the best landing anyone could have imagined, hands down.
AABABY
FRANK MARTINOLI 1
Good job all who streamed video for all to see.
jimd5
Jim Dahl 1
How much cargo did they unload to make that take off?
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
From Jon Ostrower / Wall Street Journal

A Boeing Co. 747 jumbo jet used to haul parts of 787 Dreamliner jets around the world landed at the wrong Kansas Airport Wednesday evening, according to local media reports.

Photos from a Wichita, Kan. local CBS affiliate show the heavily-modified 235 foot long jumbo jet on the ground at Jabara Airport, a small area airport, about 8 miles north of the jet's intended destination of McConnell Air Force Base.

Jabara Airport in northeast Wichita has a short 6,101-foot long runway, significantly shorter than those typically used by a 747, raising questions about whether or not the jumbo can take off.

A Boeing spokesman was not immediately able to confirm the status of the jumbo jet in Kansas, which was flown by Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings Inc. AAWW -2.38%

The local airport authority was not immediately reachable for comment.

The white and blue 747, dubbed the Dreamlifter, is one of four custom aircraft employed by the U.S. plane maker to transport major body and wing parts for each 787 Dreamliner from sites in Japan, Italy and around the U.S. The parts are flown to final assembly facilities in Everett, Wash. and North Charleston, S.C. where they are joined to create each jet.

The fleet of four is considered essential to Boeing's record 10 787 per month production rate, transporting parts for the jet across its world-wide supply chain.

According to air traffic control recordings of the flight, the aircraft was cleared to land in light winds and the crew confirmed its clearance back to controllers at McConnell AFB.

After landing the crew sought instructions from the tower on taxiing, at which point the controllers notified the crew that the jumbo had not landed at the Air Force base, which is home to Spirit AeroSystems Inc., SPR +1.30% maker of the forward body section of the mostly carbon fiber composite Dreamliner.

"Yes sir, we just landed at the other airport," the crew of the 747 radioed back.

The recordings indicate that the crew was still disoriented about its location, believing it had landed at Beech Factory Airport, which is home to Beechcraft Inc.'s facilities. In fact, the jumbo jet had landed at Jabara Airport just to the north.

The public radio recordings indicated no sign of any mechanical trouble with the aircraft.

Write to Jon Ostrower at jon.ostrower@wsj.com
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
One of many clues.

Some pilots get overly anxious in VMC conditions without automation (Asiana).
Some pilots get overly confident in VMC conditions without automation (Atlas).

Pick your poison.
tahoe967
Buster Chappell 3
19,000,000 golf balls! How dumb can CNN get? Plus she declared that the runway is 'just too short'! We shall see about that!
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
So what's that mean? Ya just can't trust some pilots?? Genius!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
On balance it's better to be competent, than incompetent.
But you don't want to be thinking that you're so great that you can't make a mistake,
'cause that's when you do.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friend PhotoFinish, I am at a loss of understanding about the gravity of a mistake ! How to gauge it ? By the nature of mistake or by the level of competence of the person/s involved ?
To my simple mind a mistake is a mistake. Period. Anxiety or confidence notwithstanding!
The damage that occurs can never be predetermined !
Like Asiana 214, it could have been worse or a vee bit less bad ! But nothing was in the control of pilots when/after they made the mistake. Before that, yes they were the masters of the a/c. Not there after .
In the current scene, any amount of damage might have resulted ?
You people are better qualified to confirm the nature and quantum of consequences possible due to landing on a very short runway, from brakes burn out to aircraft burn out and fatalities !
Especially when you are NOT aware of the facts.
For example for take off they knew all odds and acted accordingly by taking suitable and technically sound precautions.
Though it was more hazardous than landing on a short length.
Right ?
:-)
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
This one was a mistake. But they never failed to fly the plane.
The Asiana flight was also a mistake, a dufferent one. But then they also failed to fly the plane.

The results speak for themselves.

This one was hard (nighttime, unexoectedly short runway) and they nailed it. At the wrong airport, but they got themselves and the plane down safely.
The Asiana approach couldn't be any easier (daytime, clear weather, calm wind, long runway). But they blew it. They crashed their plane violently, destroying it, while killing and maiming passengers.

No what ifs. Results.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Asiana 214 - No defense possible.
So no comparisons please.
Every incident deserves to be judged on the basis of individual merits and facts.
Although the consequence DOES matter, but not beyond a certain point.
In present case also the pilots made a mistake. As well as the ATC faulted.
And that is what needs to be gone into.
If result or the quantum of the damage is any criteria, then Asiana 214 is far from being bad . Look at so many accidents involving big big birds with no survivors !
I know your obsession with Asiana 214 accident, but let us not bring in that here.
Here the issues at hand are or will be totally different.
Merely having two factors common do not entitle comparison. Both involved aircrafts and both involved pilots. The comparison stops at that.
You haven't educated me on the possible damages that might have happened.
from brakes to to the whole aircraft . Not to mention endangering airport property !
Should such a lapse of judgement go with no reprimand of any sort ?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
At minimum, 2 pilots will get retraining.
There are also 1 or more controllers that are also due for retraining.

Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Can't tell you if there is any other discipline, such as suspensions or terminations, in the works.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
ThanX my friend PhotoFinish. That's what I was meaning to say.
Some thing must be done. It should not go unnoticed, without a formal inquiry and a report !
ThanX again.
stewartmatthew
Stewart Haddad 2
www.kake.com should have live video. I heard that they are going to try to take off around noon
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Only thing is, this wasn't a simple mistake. Imagine no terrain or obstacles between you and your intended airport of landing. Now imagine terrain or an obstacle between you and your mistaken airport...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
They didn't want it screwed up twice!!!
preacher1
preacher1 2
Always the optimist. LOL
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
How rationally right you sound dear friend THRUSTT.
Just because they got away cheaply is no reason to condone it !
That is how in criminal laws we have at least two levels of commission of crime. . One is the commission of crime and the second is the attempt to commit it !
This incident falls in the second category.
From any account.
Hence it invites an appropriate action. By NTSB , by Boeing and others including KAAO authorities. After all, their airport was put into a dangerous situation.
preacher1
preacher1 1
lahtiji
lahtiji 1
I've been bouncing between them, www.kwch.com and www.ksn.com, trying to see if they'll cover it live. Seeing the attention this is getting natiowide, I wouldn't be surprised if CNN or Fox pick up the local feed as well.
preacher1
preacher1 2
The takeoff seemed effortless, but to listen to the ATC link from last night that is posted below, you have to wonder what the crew from last nite was smokin', although I guess they did a good job of getting in, expecting 12000 and getting 6.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Smokin some of that Cheech and Chong stuff!!!
preacher1
preacher1 1
On the serious side, after all my time and never to have that happened, and strange airports, as far as regular, all the time, you really take a hard look and know where you are going, brief the approach and the whole 9 yards. VFR outside or not, they were filed IFR, and even with lights still on from a previous aircraft, the had to just flatly ignored their instruments.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Seems that way. At least they flew the plane.

Would love to get an official explanation. But can't figure out anyone who might have a reason to provide one.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Don't know about this modified monster but the early versions, as back in the day, could lad, full stop, t/o in 7200'. Saw them do it many times at ABQ in 69 when PanAm had their flight training center at Roswell.. They should be able to lighten it and get it out.
Mmainiero
Michael Mainiero 1
They are owned by Boeing, and operated by Atlas Air under contract.

If they offload fuel from the jet so it just has enough to takeoff and land, then I'd believe that it should be able to take off... (well I'd hope!)
preacher1
preacher1 1
According to this link, it will be re-crewed and out of there later this morning. Nothing said about lightening it up. Of course it was probably empty, coming in to load, that will probably work. There is a little wx up there this morning but it should be gone b4 long.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Uncontrolled airport to boot. Heads must have been way up the hiney all around.
flyingcookmosnter
flyingcookmosnter 1
I like how Flightaware says they "diverted" to Jabara. I guess they can't say "Oops" as in GTI4241 Oops'ed to Jabara.

But honestly, any pilot who is thinking these guys are sub-standard pilots should think again. I would argue cargo pilots are the most disciplined, dedicated pilots out there.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Phil Rudd ought to have a comment about that. That was about his active time. LOL
dg1941
Damien Gehler 1
I guess I should also explain that Barnes County and Jamestown Regional are both out in the great beyond as for radar contact. Way back then, Minneapolis was the closest radar, almost 400 miles away, at least as far as civilian stuff goes, so ATC definitely isn't at fault, especially since Barnes County is only equipped with an NDB, whereas JMS had a VOR with HIWAS and two ILS approaches. The mistake was definitely the responsibility of the pilots.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Dan Baker posted a link way down here somewhere
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
It sounds like that just expanded the scope of a guaranteed 709 ride to address approach procedures and interpretation of instruments.

Surely, they have WAAS and were using some means of vertical guidance. Or, why were they so low before certain DME fixes?

"Blunder" is putting it mildly for guys flying something that big.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
A flight plan was filed for the reposition this morning. It was solid IMC at 700 feet and 2.5 miles visibility.

I'm sure a flight plan was filed for the landing last night and likely was not cancelled until they landed. Most such operations require an IFR plan for any flight in accordance with their approved operating specifications.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Probably to much mystery surrounding the other and how/why they landed at the wrong airport. From a summary letter on another post, it was a very experienced crew in short field takeoffs they sent in.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
From the original M.A.S.H. - call for the pros from Dover. Good question.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friend Donna Peterson, to my non flying mind , it seems that the pilots that landed were 'traumatised' by the the dangerous and wrong landing done by them.
And landing on a short runway is less hazardous than taking off from it !
Risks involved in two situations are more in the take off.
Hence a new crew.
So I think !
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, several years ago a Delta landed at the wrong Airport up in Kentucky somewhere. I was a pax on a TWA back in the day and we went over the top of RDU at about 10 grand. Shot duck base and approach and the next thing I know, we were on the ground. Right Airport but obvious that the crew had not been there before. As new pilots enter the field and sent into unfamiliar territory, it will happen more and more, or it may get caught just in time and we'll never hear about it. There is just a lot here that don't add up though.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Where did you see photos of the runway?

Don't know what the runway construction is, but they may nor realize the total damage until after next spring and all the temperature cycles.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
At the time clearance was given, as far as the controller knew they were on a ten mile file. I've been given clearance to land at Austin as far out as fifteen miles. Of course, that was about midnight with no one else around. I'm sure their Charlie was about as quiet with the same controller handling both tower and TRACON.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The navigating mistake is inexcusable certainly, but understandable.

A professional driver friend looks up directions for arriving at his scheduled charter destination in advance. He carries only about the same number of passengers as a commuter flight, but he feels a sense of responsibility for his equipment and his passengers. Not only does he have GPS (and a back-up unit), he looks up the directions in advance and studies the maps and the approaches, and prints the maps for later reference. He doesn't count on his automation to get him there. He wants to know his planned path before he gets there.

I would expect no less from Dreamlifter pilots.

That said, I can imagine how they successfully got down on the wrong runway, all lit up, and on almost the same identical heading, and directly under the approach path and only a few miles short of the planned destination. I can see them turning off the automation, while seeing the earlier runway and getting their clearance, and then putting their plane down on what they expected to be the right airport, by stick flying it in.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That the plane was able to take again with its' entire load from Italy intact, on a short runway with plenty of concrete to spare, impressed me quite a lot about the capabilities of the 747.

Do the Dreamlifters have engines with upgauged thrust, like AirForce1, or do they come with standard 747F engines?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Just imagine the shock wave that passed through their bodies when they realized how short the runway was.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I get them from time to time where none of the posts are marked "NEW", but I'm not sure there are no additional postings. Many times I find a "NEW" post wayyyy down the page in the old part of the thread.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Likely new message was spam, which was removed before you checked the thread. Happens occasionally.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Thx for your responses. Appreciate.
preacher1
preacher1 1
That's the strange part; according to the FA status on the airport, the lights are pilot activated so a brightly lit runway just didn't jump out at him.
preacher1
preacher1 1
There is a summary letter from the Wichita Airport commission posted in FA New Squawks that sort of recaps everything including airport inspection, BUT, there is no landing footage given, just that there were skid marks. There were many estimates of about 5 grand on takeoff but there is nothing actual that I know of. As a matter of fact, I think that letter says lees than that for the takeoff but it is just and estimate too.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I doubt the runway length was known, considering the skid marks as everybody talking was thing McConnell, which was what was filed. Jabarra was not even in the picture until they were down.

The clearance was given for McConnell, which is where they were filed to. It was not unusual for clearance to be given that far out, especially at that time of night at an uncongested airport.

A Dumb Q is just like a stupid one; it is only dumb or stupid if it does not get asked.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Not a chance, try Asiana 214, among others.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
It's best done with a small discrete craft, quietly, and with no witnesses. Totally unlike this one.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Spirit works as a subcontractor for Boeing and contracts for use of the nearby AFB runway to receive the cargo jets that service its' factory.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Search squawks for MacDill- it was the middle of last year I think
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I imagine those pilots are vacuum seated in there on that take off.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Dump the fuel?
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
To err is human, to err with a dreamlifter gets near 300 comments and running.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
Generally, that may be true.

But, they clearly were not using the situational awareness available. You cannot give me an excuse I'll buy for not being established with an ILS set up and a backup GPS approach. Throw in DME and there's less of an excuse.

I've not checked the frequencies but I'm sure they're not the same. WAAS provides such accurate data there is simply no excuse.

If I did this with a measly few thousand hours as a CFI in a Skyhawk you know you would not give me much of a break and rightfully would be suggesting I should get hit with a 709 ride. These pilots should be under less scrutiny?

Never mind a Skyhawk can fit about anywhere. But plug a potentially 800,000 airplane into an airport designed for up to 62,000... nawww... no slack. I'm just glad it was cargo material and not human lives.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
At best these guys need retraining. Possibly also a 709 ride to continue with the full confidence of the regulators. Maybe even termination. We'll all see how it shakes out.

One would expect more of pilots flying one of the largest commercial airplanes in operation. These guys should be able to navigate. But clearly the pilots aren't afraid of manual flying, not even in the dark. It seems they got the impression that they were closer to McConnell, then they were. When they were cleared, they just focused on landing at what they thought was the right runway, and shut out everything else.

Also in question is what the controllers were doing while the plane was clearly flying too low for an approach to McConnel AFB. At the time the plane was cleared for landing, its' altitude should've been verified by the controller.

This is almost the exact opposite of Asiana 214. They concentrated on flying the plane and relied on ATC to vector them in. Didn't work out this time. They got down, safely. Just at the wrong place.
dg1941
Damien Gehler 1
I'm just glad that they didn't damage the runway, I'm not familiar with Jabara airport, but I know that some airports can't handle such heavy aircraft. Before the airport in which I trained had it's runway rebuilt, Antonov 124's flew in on cargo missions constantly. All of the sudden they stopped, I asked the airport manager why and he stated that they had the runway examined and they found that the aircraft were slowly putting grooves into the runway and that should they have an issue, the aircraft wouldn't be able to stop fully loaded, nevertheless that it would have done a number on the runway. I only wish that they hadn't started using 747's instead since the rebuild, but it is what it is, I guess airlifting cows must not be as big a business anymore as it was.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
The correlation would be my flying a Skyhawk by hand in VMC or IMC all the time. It's a skill that keeps ya healthy. But I never cast aside resources on the panel as they apparently did.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I hear ya. They just clearly shut out everything on their panels.

A runway half the length will seem about the right size as the right one that's twice as far. They started lining up for the wrong runway, which was almost exactly on the same heading. I'll give them credit for using the runway at hand, and landing safely within the limits of a runway half as long as expected. I would expect that they didn't overshoot their approach and stopped the plane before running off the end of the runway. At least they flew the plane. (even if they failed to navigate.)
dg1941
Damien Gehler -1
I'm just glad that the aircraft didn't damage the airport's runway. At the airport in which I trained, before they lengthened and strengthened the runway, they used to fly Antonov 124's on regular cargo missions. All of the sudden they stopped. I asked one of the NWA pilots that I knew and he stated that the airport had the runway structurally examined and they found that the Antonov's were slowly putting grooves in the runway. About a year later the airport rebuilt the runway, and started using 747's instead. It's a pity that they don't use the Antonov's for it, but I guess flying cattle to Kazakhstan isn't as big a business as it was 10 years ago.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Thought that from the moment I read that they landed on 6 grand while expecting 12. Though I've been dissapoubted in their navigating, their landing impressed me. I'd rather see a video of the landing than the take-off. The take-off was meticulously planned. The landing under unexpected conditions, was executed on the basis of a lifetime of training and experience.

Not surprised to read that heavy skid marks were found on the end of the runway from the landing. Those probably weren't the only skid marks.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Not real sure but on the Boeing spec sheet that Wiki has posted, at MTOW, they can do about a grand less than the 747-400. You'll just have to jump on there and check the engines.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
That thread was way longer. Hopefully this one won't come any where near as long as that one. The Asiana 214 had much more substantial to discuss, with constant updates, and new information coming out daily, some briefed by the NTSB, other reported in the press or found out from industry sources.

In contrast, this incident has passed. The failure to land at the correct airport has been mitigated by moving the plane over to its' intended destination albeit a fes hours late.

The only major ramifications that may be left for the future would be:
1) the potential impact on the structural integrity of the runway, which won't be known until spring
2) the disposition of the pilot's employment at Atlas, (who knows when that will bd known)
3) how what is learned about the pilot's behavior during approach is used to improve piloting in the future by regulators/airlines. (the incident will be documented and what is learned from such documentation/investigation can bd used in the future when creating policy)

But as far as the immediate impact of the incident, it's all over folks.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Ah, makes sense when you consider the risks involved. Thx, preacher.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Direct: 9 sm Planned: 59 sm Flown: 76 sm
Lots of options for diversion.... just in case.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Yup.. Asiana 214 very much surpassed this one. I think I saw well over 400.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Almost certainly, mandated time off was involved. And if they were going to send in a replacement crew, might as well be a crew with short field experience. Plus the earlier crew was going to be busy with briefings to investigate how they ended up at the wrong field. Atlas in interested but so are Boeing, the FAA, and the NTSB. While it may not be a full fledged NTSB investigation, there will be some effort to determine what happened and to document it (even if done in-house with consultation from the other parties.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
That was my guess... probably instructor pilots who had substantial experience in teaching short-field and high pitch techniques typically required in combat areas.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Dear friend Preacher1, Phil's going to get you on that short field takeoff!!!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Dear friend Er.A.K. Mittal - Thank you for your conjectures. I was doing the same thing, hence my question to the pros. It appears no one actually knows, understandably, but it may become public knowledge at some future date.
preacher1
preacher1 1
There is a summary letter by the Wichita Airport folks that is posted over on another squawk. I think it is under new squawks, at least it was a few hours ago. It gives a lot of detail about that and the whole thing. Nice summary.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I watched the United guys training at Salina Ks while I was stationed at Ft. Riley. Was a real show.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
No fuel was dumped. But they did offload some fuel while on the ground before takeoff.

However, they still had their load, that they were carrying from Italy and were planning to offload at the McConnell AFB stop for work to be done at Spirit.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Who spec'ed the engines, the engineers or the bean counters? Hopefully the former.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
ThanX dear friend preacher1. So what I make out from your blog is ,
that ATC welcomed the a/c who ever they were ? Without bothering IF THERE WAS ANY PRIOR CLEARANCE ?
If so, any one can land any where in USA or in the world ?
Good people and not so good ones ? Alike.
Perfect equality !
Is any of this close to reality and law/rules/regulations ?
preacher1
preacher1 1
That may well be, but somebody had a massive brain fart.
preacher1
preacher1 1
It has happened a lot more than reported. This is just such a high profile aircraft or it would have never made the news.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
He was before that, Connie era...
preacher1
preacher1 1
Chalet's just a hard nosed city boy. lol. At a lot of uncongested fields across the country a 10-15 mile clearance is not uncommon.
JohnBode
John Bode 1
A plane landed at Jabara about five minutes before the Dreamlifter came by and the lights had not yet timed out. It just demonstrates that events sometimes line up to cause a negative outcome.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I have found on 'tapestry' squawks (several diverging threads) with over 100 entries that some may get posted near the top when I am somewhere way down the thread. Being lazy and not wanting to miss things, I search on 'new'. Eventually it will start from the top again, and there will be new ones. When I close out, and go back in- they're all gone- older than the timestamp of my entry. I also search on 'minute' to find the most recent ones.

Donna, it may or may not be 'off thread'- certainly not 'off tapestry'

joel
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
like committing a crime in dark back alley , dear friend joel wiley !
no ?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
Actually I figure they had a lot of experience flying 747 cargo planes out of airbases in Iraq and Afghanistan, where the reasons for wanting to separate from the ground and gain altitude quickly could be life and death, as in wanting to avoid surface to air missiles from the guys that want you dead and not alive.

Taking off stateside, at the controls of a 747 with 6 grand of concrete and nothing but friendlies with cameras around, is a piece of cake by comparison.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Or random acts of kindness
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
You bet. Check out el paso and Biggs army airfield. People line up on the wrong runway all the time doing a visual. Controllers stay on top of it preventing actual landings.
preacher1
preacher1 1
You know, they made it look so easy though. Looked so simple to drop flaps, lock brakes and spool up, but that's just the start. From there on is where you sweat a few bullets and really get up on your game. LOL
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
My understanding is that the plane was fully unloaded and flew min fuel to McConnley.
chalet
chalet 1
I stand by what I said, inexcusable for the very first thing they teach you is to know exactly where you are. You don't have to wonder what would have happened if this plane was just half full say around 600,000 pounds.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
From the performance(s) in the last day, that sounds about right.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friends, meaning 400+ on a single thread OR considering multiple threads on the same topic, namely Asiana 214 ?
:-)
Happy blogging .
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Asiana: this one 746. One of 25+ threads. I thought there was one that topped 1000, but could be wrong.


http://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/1_year/new/35350/Asiana%20777%20%28AAR214%29%20crashes%20upon%20landing%20at%20SFO
preacher1
preacher1 1
Any manufacturer will certify or put specs out there for MTOW and MLW, but anybody that stays in a plane for awhile, in particular same type or possibly same plane, will find out and come to know exactly what it will do and it is generally less than certified. Just like this one, at MTOW Boeing specs it at needing 9,199 ft. Obviously, he was nowhere near MTOW and these guys knew what to do with it. Back in the day, I caught a short field once in a B23 with 2 R2800 P&W's; new airport out in Northern AZ and the guy on the Unicom gave me the length of what he would have when construction was completed, not what he actually had. Bad tight landing and then we found out about the shortness. The only thing that saved our butts was a strong wind right down the runway and a clear departure path. I had a planeload of hungover folks. That perked them all up.
preacher1
preacher1 1
single thread
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
The very first thing they taught me was how to taxi with my feet...
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Ironically, with their flying skills, they could've just turned off all the automation for their approach and just had an iPad duct taped to the wall, with a little blue 'you are here' dot.

In VFR conditions, they could've just put her down softly on the correct runway, without any drama, news crews, FA discussions. None of it.

An iPad. Taped to the wall.
preacher1
preacher1 1
no cargo off at all, only fuel
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Due to short runway length !
Right dear friend sparkie624 ?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
When you're the competent professional executing all required procedures without skipping what's necessary for additional considerations.... it is easy!

Now... where did that go wrong with the landing pilots?

I'll be looking forward to the excuses recorded by the FAA on that one.
preacher1
preacher1 1
If you pick up anything post mortem on this deal, let me know.
chalet
chalet 1
I overheard somebody say that they were actually using a Medieval times astrolabe along with a Chinese compass dating back to 150 BC.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Just out of curiosity - do all pilots carry an iPad? Do the airlines issue them?
preacher1
preacher1 1
* it will exceed certification, or in this case be less
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Are you sure dear friend preacher1, no cargo ?
Though what you say makes a lot of sense(common as well technical), but perhaps I read in one of the blogs here that they took off to land at the correct airport 'to deliver' their designated cargo !
Or did I read wrong ?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
No, Delta plans to hand out Surface2 tablets instead. Word on the street is that most pilots still plan to bring the iPads they've been trialing as well and/or their own personal iPad.

But it's a good question. I wonder if Atlas has gone to an electronic flight bag. Seemed that they still had to look up charts the old fashioned way, while communicating with McConnell tower. Had they had an iPad, they would've known where they were (if not before they landed, at least immediately after stopping).

"You'll never guess where we are."
"From the way I had to stand on these brakes, I bet it's not McConnell."
"Look. The blue dot has us at Jabara."
"You couldn't pull that thing out 5 minutes ago."
"Who's calling the boss?"
"Rock, paper, scissors."
preacher1
preacher1 1
Your street word on DAL Ipads is correct. They are going to use primarily personal and put them up alongside the surface2. I love your analogy of the conversation. LOL
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Actually the plane probably has way better navigational equipment than an iPad. Not always, deoending on when it was built and if they've updated the avionics.

But the point is the cockpit has become increasingly complex with too much information vying for the pilot's attention. If there's too much going on, a choice has to br made between flying the plane or floooeing everything being displayed on all those panels. Some pilots who still remember how to fly may just block it all out eg. when they grab the controls to land.

What I'm saying is that the trend toward simplifying cockpit design is not coming soon enough. There's already an entire generation of planes with lots of bells and whistles, and another in the process of getting built to replace the current one.

So while I don't suggest that the avionics shouldn't be continually improved (they should), nor that any info the pilot wants, couldn't be easily looked up as necessary (all info should be accessible), but the panels show be showing just the most contextually important info in any given situation.

Let me be clearer. Pilots should be designing the cockpits, not engineers.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I use a stopwatch and a pencil...
chalet
chalet 2
Right on. There have been a number of articles in various trade magazines on the subject, too complex cockpits with too much computerizing that are doing the opposite of what they were intended to do: make things easier and more accurate for crews.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
No offence dear friend PhotoFinish, I guess pilots are trained for flying, NOT for ergonomics which is a specialised area of Human Engineering, as some call it !
Industrial engineering covers all such aspects. Any engineer of the subject worth his/her salt knows what is the MOST important source of inputs to design ?
Obviously the pilots ! Who else ?
Enjoy blogging.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Off loading fuel before take off, my friend PhotoFinish !
Why ? Any idea ?
I have heard of this action before landing due to MLW reasons . But before take off ?
They could have 'donated' it ! Instead . In these days of high costs .
;p
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
You're the self-described engineer.

The fuel is dumped when a plane has to divert unexpectedly early on in the flight when there is still too much weight, specifically more weight than maximum certified landing weight. That is to protect the plane's equipment including landing gear.

In this case, fuel was offloaded to lower its' takeoff weight and improve the plane's performance on a short runway. The less the weight, the sooner the plane will get up to speed, to be able to rotate and take off prior to reaching the end of the runway. In hindsight, they had quite a large margin for error on this takeoff. But they wanted to make sure they wouldn't have any problems. You don't get a do-over, if you mess up lifting a very large plane from a short runway.

The kept enough fuel onboard to get the plane the short distance to the nearby McConnell AFB (the intended original destination). I would imagine that none of the fuel was wasted. It was likely offloaded onto jet fuel trucks, which likely delivered the fuel down the road the the AFB, where it may have been reloaded back onto the same plane after touchdown.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friend PhotoFinish !
Firstly, I am NOT the self described engineer. My university admitted me to that degree of Bachelor ! Recognised(accepted in) by all Us in USA, and rest of the world alike !
So please correct yourself.
I wonder what did you make out when I used the term 'MLW' ?
And you went on to explain the concept behind MLW, trying to show off what an XXXXXXX I may be ! No ?
I grant it that my understanding of the situation is explained in my comment to what dear friend sparkie624 wrote , BECAUSE my comment was written about the time you were busy in paraphrasing my "praise" !
So kindly be more considerate while 'eulogising' me in your typical style .
Please.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Minor semantic difference perhaps? You have stated you have a degree in engineering. That would, to me, be characterized as 'self identified as an engineer'. I don't have a problem substituting 'described' for 'identified'

Then again, your comment to which PhotoFinish replied- was it satirical, and just misunderstood due to the the lack of a satire font?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Doobs
Dee Lowry 0
They didn't. That's the beauty of it. They emptied the fuel tanks to the point where they had just enough fuel to get to McConnell AFB, 9 miles away.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I'll be fair and say we're human and most of us could land at the wrong airport due to fatigue etc.. BUT, these guys are a bunch of idiots that need to turn their certificates in. Once you're on the ground, it isn't hard to figure out where you are. Tell me these aircraft don't have a display of the surrounding area. Tell me since they know what their lat long's are, that they can't reference it on a chart. Do you actually need a controller to figure it out for you??? Those idiots need to free up those positions for qualified pilots looking for a job!!! Where are you Phil??? Don't these dudes suck???
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I won't call them idiots but I'm not gonna argue with ya, either.

As I've said before, events like this and worse almost always happen because the pilots did something stupid.

I'm thinking we're pretty much in agreement.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I listened to the radio traffic from a post above. The crewman` on the radio refferenced "someone outside the aircraft" when talking to the AFB radio operator, then asked for a fix again. Why not ask the "guy" outside the airplane? o much of this article doesn't make sense to me.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
I wasn't going to be harsh, but then I listened to the audio clip with them on the ground...
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
They didn't sound too bright. But they had just landed in the wrong field. They likely only figured itbout when they were putting the plane down and found they has much less concrete than expected. They were just readjusting their reality to the reality outside their cockpit.

Imagine the guy in the ground walking up to the huge ugly beast, BY FAR THE LARGEST PLANE EVER TO LAND AT THAT FIELD. What was he thinking? (what if had never even seen a pic of the Dreamlifter?)
preacher1
preacher1 1
The only thing that really makes sense in the whole deal is that it took off, got off OK, and landed safely at McConnell. There are a whole bunch of unanswered questions on the inbound. The biggest thing to me, if the FA info is accurate, how did he land without knowing something was amiss to commence with. If I read the airport info correct on FA, PAPI's are on continual but runway lights have to be pilot activated. If that be the case, that should have tipped him off that something was wrong right then.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I thought I saw something about another aircraft attempting to land there about the same time. Could they have obligingly turned on the lights? It's not like Motel-8 where they leave the lights on for you.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
I've always figured that some other plane turned on the lights. Either just landed or was about to do so.

The pilots may have landed here before at night and had never seen the lights on at BEC and AAO. Ironically, it may have been having the lights on thar made them believe they were at the right place. At least, until they had to stand on their brakes, and clean their shorts.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 0
Dreamlifter really didn't know where they were. It took the McConnell tower to position them with a light aircraft flying overhead of Dreamlifter. Don't think this mishap would have happened if Boeing pilots were driving.
jimquinndallas
Jim Quinn 1
Is Atlas hiring now?
bernhardcarl
Bernhard Carl 1
would be interesting to read the posts here if it was an Airbus Superguppy with german or french pilots landing on a wwrong airport.......
yutahase421
Yutaka Hasgawa 1
Tarihoo !!
ronash13
Ron Nash 1
Let me guess - these guys have always had trouble reading maps, particularly when they hold them upside down?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
WOW... That is going to make a GREAT STATIC Display... :)
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
We need a pool on how many feet it takes for the mains to leave the concrete. Lol
Gudseeds
Gudseeds 1
Well.. 'Braking worked fine'.. now what about the 'Acceleration Part' ?
jimquinndallas
Jim Quinn 1
I cannot see how a crew could mistake a 6100'x100' runway for McConnell AFB, especially with all the NAVAIDS, etc. I know this sort of thing has happened before, all around the country, even with military aircraft, but you'd think even a student pilot might just notice the visual clues by looking outside the aircraft and looking at the runway, which must have looked fairly small compared to the runway they were expecting to see. I didn't see any clues on the videos that the weather was a factor....
paolofavarato
Paolo Favarato 1
Buy an I pad put on the yoke with some jeppsons.
VisApp
Dave Mills 1
And a followup to sparkie...the CNN comments section of the story is the most fun I've had in...months. Apparently, too, the Boeing tug broke down on its way to Jabara.
nmmatt
Matt Ryan 1
This is an update to a previously squawked story.
preacher1
preacher1 2
If they ain't, they probably will be shortly. LOL
preacher1
preacher1 2
This reply will be comment 200 on this post. I expect that the site might crash because of the number. LOL
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
I'm at 3800.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
If yours is 200, does that mean mine qualifies for high performance?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
For the instant, not even moment. Latest post is like oldest person in the world- a short-lived record. 8-)
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, that C17 missed Madill down at Tampa in broad daylight, VFR, earlier this year. I got to agree with THRUSTT here below; head up the hiney and just not paying attention. Don't know about the crew but this is a fairly regular point for DREAMLIFTERS to pick up at.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
Using your line, they've been going in there since Moses was a pup...
yr2012
matt jensen 1
That was last year (2012) at Peter Knight Airport - 3400ft strip on Davis Island in downtown Tampa, instead of MacDill 4.6mi south.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkuqsd_tRHw
http://www.tampabay.com/news/military/macdill/c-17s-landing-at-wrong-airport-elicits-theories-but-few-facts/1241869
Actually that flight had been re-routed twice before being sent to MacDill. Eventually, they made it.
antokalaz1
antonio alaniz 1
I just read them and I agree, couldn't stop snickering.
"But more importantly, what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow? And one carrying a coconut gripping it by the husk?"
"They need Leslie Nielsen."
"Apparently Toronto Mayor Rob Ford got his pilots license."
:)
preacher1
preacher1 1
Works most every time.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Apparently they can do it pretty easy... They made a simple error of airport identification... When they flipped the coin for which one they wanted heads and got tails. :)
paolofavarato
Paolo Favarato 1
That why we have a plethora of garmins onboard
preacher1
preacher1 1
taking off at noon. New crew, 8 minute flight to McConnell
preacher1
preacher1 1
That is true, but at some point, for whatever reason, they had to go VFR in here, at least by the way they flew. If they had stayed IFR all the way in as probably required, they would have loaded it back down the line and never made the mistake. You don't see any record of them closing the flight plan BUT at some point as they came lower and it was all clear, the could have just ignored their instruments and the rest is history. They are just lucky that Boeing got it right on takeoff and landing on that plane. With that wing/flap size and those engines, that thing has to fly. Back in the day, PanAm was putting them things in/out of places a 727 wouldn't go.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Everytime there's an accident, my friend preacherman reminds us all that the pilots should just fly the plane. Well, these guys did that. They flew the plane. They squeezed her in, with 6 grand less than expected.

All I'm saying, somebody should line up to pin a medal on their chests. Not for ignoring their panels and landing on the wrong strip, but when the messed up, they ignored everything else and just flew the plane. They wisely chose to protect tier own lives and their plane.

Not sure how they screwed up so royally. (whether wrong input or counting on ATC to vector them in). But after they found themselves in a potentially messy situation, they remembered to 'fly the plane'.

We may be wrong. But that's how I see it. The other much less likely option is that they input the wrong airport into their automation and just followed it in. (they'd be on almost identical heading, just at a different altitude.)
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I gotta feeling the FAA won't see it in that same light.

It's hard for me to as well. They screwed up. Then they got dang lucky it didn't get any worse.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
They simply had an error in identification of the airport they were landing at. Straight forward and simple... Their explanation of how that happened may be somewhat more complicated.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
LOL You guys crack me up.

Yup, that's how it seems. US pilots are known for being cocky, and for having great flying skills. Would explain both the misidentification of airport and the ability to get her in there.

It's an 'I know better than my airplane.' Won't ever crash short low and slow waiting for the A/Ts to throttle up some thrust to keep the plane flying, but may occasionally land with superb skills at the wrong airport on an extremely short runway.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, they did FLY THE PLANE and at that point they did a very good job of it, BUT, the problem here is going to be, WHY WERE THEY THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? They at least had the presence of mind not to attempt a turnaround and a nighttime takeoff. Probably what was not shown or talked about much is that the tug that was sent over there probably turned them around on the active or pushed them all the way back for the takeoff positioning.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Looking at the runway width of 100' and the distance between the main gear and nose, they had to have been pushed back.

Now, imagine if no tug had been available or had to be trucked in from a greater distance. They were also lucky McConnell was geared up for heavies.

As for their "identification error", I beat that one with a stick yesterday. They simply blew off their resources for situational awareness. Odds are... triple-redundant resources.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
One thing you can say for it... He did not get off the center line by far :)
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Sure didn't...Imagine a Horse Fly landing on a toothpick.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
Fatigue, complacency...
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
On the recording he says they're on a RNAV GPS approach. I don't know how they did it either.

Maybe they entered something wrong, and just ignored their panels, rather than fix their inputs once they saw the runway (or maybe figured they entered it wrong and ignored the panels).
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
That goes back to my question of... did they ignore vertical guidance? Or worse, did they ignore step-down altitudes?

They may not seem necessary in visual conditions but if you're still at or above a step-down and yet rather close to the airport...

Well, here's your sign!
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 0
how about carelessness and stupidity?
jwstephens
james stephens 1
I don't think that one can jump to any conclusion yet.

The McDill incident doesn't compare, because the pilots didn't know the area and were rerouted twice.

In this case I will be interested in why they didn't recognize the problem on approach visually.


Also at such an airport as Jabara, were the lights on 24/7? The tower was closed there, and some such airports also turn off their lights unless you key on the tower frequency.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Elsewhere in the thread it was reported an a/c had just landed there- lights may still have been on.
yr2012
matt jensen 0
How about relying too much on computers - as in the C17 incident in Tampa last year.
dunnm
Matthew Dunn -1
I hope the pilots from last nights flight were fired. To think if that plane had run off the runway last night and into peoples' homes killing them. How does a plane with GPS land at the wrong airport???? These guys are idiots.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Don't know what will happen to them but note that Atlas flew in a new crew to get it out and take it on.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 0
We've got Clearance, "Clarence". Roger, "Roger".
davidwatson
david watson 0
Brought in new pilots from NY..... wonder what happened to the ones that put it down there....
Pileits
Pileits 0
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Busy working on their resumes? Considering new careers?
AABABY
FRANK MARTINOLI 3
Can land a B744 in the dark on a short strip with my eyes closed?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
... with a full load :)
n111ma
n111ma -2
I bet if "Jabby" was at the controls that night they would've landed at the correct airport! RIP Colonel.
btweston
btweston -2
Fascinating. This would usually result in a bunch of you calling for these guys' heads, but since the B word is involved we get a stroke fest. Humans are truly remarkable.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
Not sure what world you live in. But around here, the folks are quite tough as far as pilot performance goes.

They were especially tough on the Asiana pilots who crashed the B 777 at SFO, leading to death, sever injury, loss I plabe and damage to airport. They were reassigned within the company but working.

They were tough on the Southwest pilot that took over control in the last seconds of the B 737 flight into LGA, heavily damaging the airplane, and slightly injuring a few in evac. The pilot was terminated.

They were less tough on UPS pilots who flew the A310-600F into terrain, who died in their accident and destroyed the plane and its' contents, but didn't kill anyone else.

In this case, no one was injured, no one was killed, no plane was damaged, no airport was damaged. A bunch of people were embarrassed (pilots, controllers) when the plane landed on the wrong field. So I don't understand tour concern. The only damage here is financial as the plane did not arrive at its' intended destination on time, so its' contracted job was not completed within the parameters.

Still this crowd knows no mercy. There have been no shortage of folks who are 'dusting off their resumes' for applying to pilot jobs at Atlas because apparently there were be at least a couple of openings in the near future. If you don't understand, there implicitly convey the idea that these pilots will be fired. The folks here imply that the pilots will be fired for safely landing at the wrong airport with a runway about 6,000 ft shorter than expected, and still coming to a complete stop within the airport grounds. At the same time, they were idiots with thier heads up their heinies, and to a lesser degree heros for safely getting down despite their obvious error of landing on the wrong field.

Not sure how much more you'd want beyond their jobs. You're not suggesting that they should be jailed. Are you?
baechtel
martin baechtel -7
It's not a 747 it's a 787-10
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
Nah, it's a Cessna...
99NY
99NY 0
Nah, Boeing 2707. On clandestine flight tests.
Mmainiero
Michael Mainiero -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

**Developing Story** Boeing 747 Dreamlifter Lands at Colonel James Jabara Airport (KAAO)

Atlas Air, the contractor for the Boeing 747 Dreamlifter, was supposed to fly into McConnell AFB in Wichita, Kansas. Apparently shot the night approach into the wrong airport!

https://twitter.com/jr_graybill/status/403388765005029376/photo/1
chuckmtl
chuckmtl 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Boeing 747 mistakenly lands at small Kansas airport

A Boeing 747 jumbo jet mistakenly landed a tiny airport in Wichita, Kansas late Wednesday, raising questions about whether or not the plane will be able to take off.



http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/24030715/boeing-747-mistakenly-lands-at-small-kansas-airport