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Squawks & HeadlinesPlane crashes overnight at Nashville International, goes unnoticed until morning.

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Plane crashes overnight at Nashville International, goes unnoticed until morning.

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The plane that crashed onto one of Nashville International Airport’s runways Tuesday likely sat there for hours before another taxiing plane discovered the wreckage, an official said. The small, single-engine Cessna-172 crashed sometime after 3 a.m., killing the pilot, according to National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Peter Knudson. The crash was reported to Nashville emergency crews shortly after 9 a.m. (www.tennessean.com) More...

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james801
James Farnsworth 6
NTSB Update...

NTSB Identification: ERA14FA027
14 CFR Non-U.S., Non-Commercial
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 29, 2013 in Nashville, TN
Aircraft: CESSNA 172F, registration: C-GRJH
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

On October 29, 2013, between about 0200 and 0845 central daylight time (CDT), a Cessna 172F, Canadian registration C-GRJH, owned by the Windsor Flying Club and operated by a private individual, was destroyed when it impacted runway 2C while attempting a landing at the Nashville International Airport (BNA), Nashville, Tennessee. The private pilot was fatally injured. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at BNA from about 1045 on October 28, 2013, to about 1100 on October 29, 2013. The flight originated at Windsor Airport (CYQG), Windsor, Ontario, Canada, and a visual flight rules flight plan was filed which listed the destination airport as Pelee Island Airport (CYPT), Pelee, Ontario, Canada.

According to the flying club’s manager, the pilot signed the flying club’s authorization sheet with his destination listed as CYPT. Transportation Canada reported the pilot closed his flight plan about 2030. The pilot did not file any additional flight plans and a preliminary review of air traffic control information provided by the Federal Aviation Administration revealed no communication between air traffic control and the pilot.

Airport operations personnel at BNA reported conducting an airfield inspection about 0200, with nothing unusual noted on runway 2C. At about 0845, an airplane taxing for departure reported a piece of what appeared to be an engine cowling on runway 2C. Airport operations personnel responded and discovered the wreckage of C-GRJH. The airplane impacted runway 2C on approximately a 040 degrees magnetic heading and skidded about 450 feet before coming to a stop east of the runway. A fire signature started about 220 feet after the initial impact point and continued to the main wreckage. All flight control surfaces were accounted for at the scene and continuity was confirmed. The airplane came to rest upright and the cabin and cockpit were consumed by fire. The propeller assembly was found about 400 feet from the initial impact point. Both propeller blades exhibited impact damage with chordwise scratching and one of the blades exhibited tip curling. The engine was located about 700 feet from the initial impact point.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 6
Fog, limited visibility, and darkness likely combined with no emergency call from pilot has an unfortunate outcome. Small plane fire burned itself out at an isolated location on the airfield away from other planes, structures.

Then found after first light.
(and that's the best case scenario)
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
This is one of the more informative posts here. Too bad I hasn't gotten more up votes.

It would be worthy if it's own squawk, as the info would reach a wider audience.
james801
James Farnsworth 1
You can post if to one with the below link. I cant post squawks now one bad thing about the staff writer thing.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20131029X13001&key=1

Please give credit to
Peter C. Knudson
Public Affairs Officer NTSB
He sent this to me befor it was posted.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 2
Humility thy name is James !
:p
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Seem to be doing a great job, my friend James Farnsworth ! But to stay sane, ensure constant air supply at NTP (normal temp. and pressure) for your cubicle !
;-p
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I'd like to know how the plane was equipped. It has been removed from the club's web site so there's no data there. Those aircraft remaining show no specific avionics equipped so it would remain an open question even if still listed. Those still there do not give the impression of being regularly used for instrument flight though the club offers training for an instrument rating.

There's a lot I could speculate about but his flight "under the radar" that far into the US does not bode well toward legitimate purposes.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

aknorris
aknorris 9
I live near enough the airport to tell you it was certainly NOT VFR from roughly 2200 local the night (before the crash) through until around 0800 local the morning after. The fog was so dense and high that even Highway Patrol was issuing visibility advisories for automobile drivers. Like Craig has said, it probably wasn't even above minimums for ILS at the time of the crash.
N4196G
Craig Prouse 6
I did look at the weather during the period mentioned and it was all between 1/8 and 1/4 mi visibility and VV001, for several hours. Not VFR. Not even legal for an ILS in a C172.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
If you fly enough IFR, you'll find there are those times when it's VMC on one part of the field and solid IMC on another part. I've departed from SAT when it was 1/8 and not even a hundred vertical down the runway. At 500' AGL and not even a quarter mile off the departing threshold, it was severe clear.

It's quite easy for part of the airport to remain concealed. The METAR tells you what it saw. What you don't get is what was annotated via ATIS.
TXCAVU
99NY may have it right then.
NWAARJ
NWAARJ 13
Alright people, for all of you that aren't controllers I am going to explain a few things. A friend of mine works at that facility so I will give you the low down. The Skyhawk flew into BNA without his transponder on and NO contact with BNA approach or tower. Given that it was 3 am and foggy its impossible to tell if a plane is landing on the runway WITHOUT a transponder. If it was VFR they could look out there to verify it. When a person flies without a transponder we cannot tell if its a plane, a flock of birds, or a big truck driving down the interstate. As far as runway checks go, at our airport they do them at about 2 am. So if a guy crashes at 3 am, without talking to anyone, I can see how it goes missed. The only way it would have been found is if another aircraft had used that runway. Anyone else need me to explain anything?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
Correct to a certain extent, but there isn't a 100 MPH bird or truck that's going to mimic an ILS approach. The blip should at least be seen, unless since nothing was going on, attention was elsewhere...
NWAARJ
NWAARJ 1
Hmm I would like to see if you would notice that blip at 3 am. Maybe there was not even a blip. At our airport, sometimes the radar does not even pick up primary targets on a 1 mile final!
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
If there was one, why would you not notice it at 3AM?
NWAARJ
NWAARJ 4
At least where I work, we see millions of primaries a day, mostly birds. Are you telling me that I should call airport ops at 3 in the morning to do a runway check every time I see a primary that looks to be approaching the airport. If I did, I would probably be calling them every ten minutes.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
You missed my previous point of the target flying a precise approach path.
NWAARJ
NWAARJ 2
Yea I got that, we still have a lot of targets that appear to fly the approach path. Whether its a semi-truck or a train or birds. Not sure of the layout at BNA, but all three could be a possibility.
mwilliams78
mwilliams78 2
I40 runs along the north side of BNA... If that is true I bet they pick up all kinds of garbage on the radar... Going about the same speed of a c172 flying slowly.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I sure didn't know the radar was that piss poor. Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
That's what we do here.
crk112
crk112 1
Me either but that's the pisspoor quality of the system the FAA pays for these days.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Even though I have TAS in my plane I guess I thought I was getting a layer of protection from non xponder traffic from apch or dep control.
NWAARJ
NWAARJ 2
Yea most of the time the primary targets are correct, but sometimes on small GA aircraft we don't pick up anything. We have a Cessna 140 (w/o a transponder) that flies in and out of our airport and we almost always never pick up anything on him!
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Was supposed to go under Walt Leuci's comment. Sorry.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
Could be they have a lot of ETVs...extra terrestrial vehicles in that area THRUST.
bbabis
bbabis 1
It is understandable. Thank God no one piled into that mess.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Thanks for passing along some real info. Explains how it happened.

Now people can continue to speculate as to what he was up to and why. Could be as simple as he was fleeing his felony charges. People seem to 'go for the border', at least in the movies.

This may become a movie. At the very least it will make one of the television journalist magazine shows.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
james801
James Farnsworth 4
I have requested a formal update from the NTSB'S office and was told we will get a factual update by Tuesday. I also requested the ATC radar data under the Freedom of Information act. I will post what I get from them asap.

Fly safe!!!
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 4
Obviously the pilot made a cacophony of serious errors, unfortunately resulting in his death, but shouldn't the tower have noticed that an unidentified aircraft had entered the control zone, then the TCA? Primary radar would at least pick up on the fact that there is an unidentified hunk of metal in the vicinity of the airport.
randyhurt
Randy Hurt 4
I listened to the ATC tapes from 3am to 3:40 cdt. One departure reported he broke out about 1,300, so that's about 800 feet of fog. It was dense that morning. I also heard approach saying "Calling Nashville Approach you are faint and unreadable"

One theory is they guy lost his alternator and flew his handheld (gps, transciever, iPad) down to the runway and either stalled too high or drove it in too steep.
james801
James Farnsworth 2
U got a link for the tapes?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
He made it onto the runway so it may have looked like everything was ok.

If he wasn't visible from the tower, the pilot could've easily flubbed his landing and/or run out of runway, unaware, landing in pea soup.

If he didn't declare an emergency, or in any way indicate he was having problems, no one would even know to go look or him. It's not like it's a commercial flight with folks on the ramp waiting to unload the plane.

If nothing bad had happened, he would've made his way to the GA ramp, parked, and gone home.

As we've seen from previous crashes on landing, everything seems ok up until it isn't. And it all goes bad in seconds. Rarely do the pilots contact ATC during the incident. Only afterward, but only if they're alive and conscious.
mwilliams78
mwilliams78 4
I've landed on 2C at that airport several times. Unless you are familiar with the airport, you will not find either FBO in quarter mile visibility at night. I had to get progressive taxi instructions to find signature on a clear day!

I am curious how he got all the way across the international border and all the way to Nashville without being noticed. Maybe his transponder was off and he was flying low when he crossed.
TXCAVU
Uh, yes. It's a long way from Windsor, CA.
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 2
Even with no transponder, you would think that the airspace would be monitored for bogies using primary radar. You are correct in that he would have been required to file a flight plan to enter US airspace in advance of leaving Pelee Island. Furthermore, once in US airspace, he would have been required to stop at the closest airport with Customs services. I assume that there are several closer than Nashville :), about 420 nm or so from Pelee Island. There is a lot of potential egg on face to be passed around here.
MHarryE
Michael Enzmann 2
In 1968 when Mathias Rust flew his 172 from Helsinki to Moscow landing on a bridge near St. Basils and taxiing in front of the cathedral and stopping before hitting the crowds on Red Square, didn't heads roll?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
That was 1986
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
Toledo is the closest US with customs from Pelee island. Maybe Cleveland also.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Weren't there some posts recently about GA flights across the Southern tier (one from Calaveras in particular) that were met be ICE and DEA after long VFR flights? So, someone does track on that side of the Country. Maybe the North border gets less scrutiny? While we still take off our shoes and get the 'TSA tickle' routinely.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
ThanX my friend James Farnsworth for being so concerned.
Please keep up the good work.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Thanks for the ATC radio traffic information.

Though as far as theories, if the man was wanted for felony charges, I would think that he was intentionally not communicating with ATC, before I will start speculating about faulty alternators, an of electrical equipment. Remember that it was pea soup and he was going to need electricity to fly that ILS approach in dense fog and hit runway. That he was able to reach the runway on those conditions also suggest that he had electricity, and that hi failure to contact ATC had another cause. I'd go with him allegedly being a fugitive as the likeliest cause.

The pilot may have flown into fog as he was getting to the range limit of his aircraft, using the ILS glidepath to get out of the fog, and find another path to continue his run.
Timsc2011
Tim Cuthbert 1
what is a tca? what is a control zone?
DerekCooks
Derek Thomas 1
TCA - A terminal control area, is the 5 mile wide and "X" feet of altitude area surrounding an airport (major airports, anyway) in which you may not fly without contacting that TCAa's controllers.

Control Zone, in this case, I believe refers to the air traffic control zones that the country is divided into - with ATC controllers watching radar within their assigned zone. This guy apparently didn't show up on anything, anywhere...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Class b and d
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
The easiest explanation is a TCA was redesignated as Class B and control zone was redesignated as Class D.

The current airspace classifications came into play in 1993 when the US adopted ICAO standards.

The US does not use Class F. Where used, it's essentially the same as Class G but ATC is provided as advisory only. It would be akin to flying in Class G with flight following where there is no such service in other country's Class G. I've found nothing definitive but I suspect the change would take place where radar service is available making that level vary so much across the country it would drive one nuts to follow it. Someone was wise not to adopt Class F in the US.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
ThanX to Derek thomas and Ken Lane, for the explanation. I too have learnt it, without asking the Q ! .
dougbrec
You assume he was flying an ILS. I believe the most likely scenario is that he lost his alternator, electricity, and was flying a GPS approach off of his iPad. Who uses a handheld or portable GPS these days? You don't need any electricity for your iPad to work.

This explains why no communications and an approach into Nashville even though it was below minimums - no ATIS.

One mentor pilot taught me that if you are low of fuel, screw the minimums and continue the approach anyway. In Nashville from Canada, this pilot would have been at the end of his useful range.

A fugitive would have selected a non-controlled airport.
dougbrec
Apparently, I was wrong. Some of the other guys on this post are saying that the pilot was wanted for child pornography in Canada. He was a fugitive running from the law with his transponder off and maintaining radio silence.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
There were reports that a plane was heard circling over the airport before a crashing sound was heard. That would be more consistent with a slow turn stall, than an ILS approach. We'll know more as the investigation reveals more details.
TXCAVU
With our aged radar systems in place, who knows?
MRICCIOTTI
M RICCIOTTI 4
The pilot landed at Pelee island and closed his flight plan.
Then somehow he ended up in Nashville.
Mystery
99NY
99NY 6
Prob drug related.
n7224e
BC Hadley 1
"He had filed plans to fly to Pelee Island on Lake Erie, a route he had flown multiple times." Plus, "...the man notified authorities when he landed on the island hours before the crash, but did not mention another trip." At the very least, sounds suspicious.
grinch59
Gene Nowak 2
Allow the NTSB to put together the facts. So far a lot of you are assuming too much. The dead pilot hasn't even been positively identified. Therefore, who knows, the aircraft could have been stolen in the middle of the night. It has happened before!
djjamar
Jamar Jackson 2
What's so important in life that you need to fly a 172 at 2am at night in another country?
saries
Steve Ries 2
That's the very same aircraft (C-GRJH) my son first soloed in when getting his license in 2010...
TXCAVU
A shame that this even occurred but if the fog was that thick, it could have been missed since there was no flight following nor radio contact.
dbaker
Daniel Baker 2
It will be interesting to find out what happened with the ELT. There was a somewhat similar accident at VNY about 10-15 years ago.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
Just viewed a report from yesterday that says that BNA airport officials (did not state tower officials but airport officials) heard an aircraft circling overhead and apparently crashed while trying to land around 2:30 a.m. The big question here is the time. If someone heard the aircraft circling overhead then crash on landing then someone that witnessed him overhead & apparently crashing should have notified authorities....wonder who that could have been. The pictures of the accident look to me like he dropped out of the sky.....don't know @ what point on or near the runway he landed...but the wreckage pattern looks tight.
bizjets101
biz jets 2
Aircraft was C-GRJH a Cessna 172R based in Windsor Ontario, Canada - registered to the Windsor Flying Club.

Aircraft attempted a landing in heavy fog - thus due to fog nobody was aware the aircraft remains were there.
vanbess
vanbess 2
he may have turned it off, he bypassed TSA at the border and was not talking to ATC the entire trip and violated the regs by not filing for an international flight. then chose to land on a runway that was not in operation at the time based on ATC tapes he wasn't talking to anyone. this one will be interesting the flight was to be a local one according the rental.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
There had to have been radio contact with at least Approach and Tower. Seems like the Tower guys are about to be "retrained..."
TXCAVU
Will be interesting to read the facts.
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 1
Perhaps a severe medical event in the cockpit? Maybe he was incapacitated sufficiently that it took all he had just ot try to land. Even in fog, based on the picture, he really pancaked it. A 172 can take a good beating and still land in 1 piece.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
It doesn't matter what condition he was in, my point was he had to have been talking to someone, unless he was flying NORDO IFR. At the very least someone vectored him for an approach...Warning bells should have gone off and they should've started looking. Either this isn't the full story, or ATC just screwed this one up royally!!!
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
Got to be more to the story. Nobody sneaks into a controlled field like BNA. You are right.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, my 2cts.I'm kinda like THRUSTT. He had to talk to somebody, at least you would think. BUT, with fog that thick and probably a low nighttime traffic count, I guess anything is possible. The plane and pilot were found and identified and it was bad foggy. Those are things that are certain. Anything else is speculation and as some have said, the report will be interesting.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Looks like if you need to sneak in an ILS you would go 20 miles down the street to Smyra where the tower closes and no airliners. Whatever. Guess we will see.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
If this was semi covert we will never know. Over here in Europe this guy would have had a couple of Typhoon military fighters by his side...well kinda...cannot slow down to 100 knots...within 15 mins as soon as he was on the radar. Unless he flew the whole stretch at 150 feet ABGL. Even then the AWACS would have picked him up. What the F goes on in the USA? Seems to me you got an open house for intruders.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
You would think so. But apparently not.
bbabis
bbabis 1
Not sure how familiar he may have been with the area but critical fuel and a false belief that better runway environment lighting might help him do something he had never done. Things were probably going good until he entered the top of the fog and went instantly IFR. Bright flashing lights can then be quite disorienting.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Re: the question in your post. A number of us have the same precise question. Unanswered as yet....
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
May have blended in with the millions of Canadian geese flying south for the winter.

Exposes a major weakness in any airspace.

Remember even the terrorists in 9/11 knew to turn off the plane's transponders.

With Cesnas though, most of the time they're flying with transponders off, they're more likely to be carrying drugs not terrorists.

But if they're going to keep the northern border that wide open, why not human trafficking.

Thus incident has opened up a whole bag of unanswered questions.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Transponders? Are these the ones which are meant to warn and prevent collision and respond to radars of ATCs and the like ?
Clearly I am seeking knowledge ! If you please.
Your last sentence seems to be a great eye opener for the various law enforcing authorities .
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 2
"The dead pilot hasn't even been positively identified. Therefore, who knows, the aircraft could have been stolen in the middle of the night. It has happened before!"

Thinking of a recent squawk, I would suggest that it might be a repo. But the flying club plane owner and member pilot have been identified.

Early in there were reports of fog and low visibility. But if it turns out that conditions were VFR, and there was no radio contact, as is now being reported, that will open up a whole bag of questions.

Look forward to reading what the investigation will uncover.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Interesting. A slow turn leading into a stall would bring him down.

But there's still the question of why no one was notified if a crash was heard.
adwri
Andrew Wright 1
http://www.wsmv.com/story/23829308/ntsb-to-hold-news-conference-on-plane-crash

Canadian pilot Michael Callan crashed and died, and his Cessna-172 single-engine plane burned, about 2:30 a.m. Tuesday along Runway 2 Center. A passing plane spotted the debris shortly before 9 a.m.

Callan's identity was confirmed by the medical examiner's office, according to the Metropolitan Nashville Airport Authority.
TXCAVU
"At approximately 2:30 A.M., local time, one of our aircraft, rented and flown by a club member, was involved in an accident at The Nashville International Airport. Reports confirm that the plane crashed while attempting to land and the pilot was killed. There was only the pilot on board and the coroner in Nashville has confirmed that he was, in fact, our member."

Windsor Flying Club
james801
James Farnsworth 2
I am very sorry for you loss. No matter how or why...
nicholasweber
nicholas weber 0
I'm sorry to hear that he was somebody you knew. Notwithstanding some of the other comments here I do feel that the regulations in NA are lax compared to the UK. Yes, there's a lot more GA than in the UK, but! In the UK no one is permitted anywhere near a major airport without having followed the correct procedures. i.e. filing a flightplan, having the minimum required radio equipment, etc. In the case of a VFR flight PPR (prior permission required).
Here in Italy where I am based (I do training courses for ENAC). no one is permitted at all under any circumstances in controlled airspace without the minimum qualification in English of ICAO level 4.
N4196G
Craig Prouse 3
It's not clear that Elizabeth actually knew the deceased pilot. I think she was merely quoting a press release by the flying club of which the deceased was a member.

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you think this has anything to do with lax regulations. We had an incident in California several years ago where a student pilot rented an airplane under false pretenses and flew it into the side of a mountain at night because he was suicidal and under the influence of narcotics. If this pilot was similarly out of his ever-loving mind and looking to suicide in an airplane, I fail to see how regulations pertaining to international flight plans, radio equipment, or airspace would have any effect whatsoever on the outcome.

When nothing about a situation logically adds up, it's time to stop looking for a logical explanation and assume the illogical: that the pilot wasn't following the rules. He deliberately failed to file a flight plan. He deliberately refused to talk to ATC. He deliberately pointed his airplane across an international border and into bad weather, and he flew it until he ran out of gas and just happened to crash near a major airport.

It's called Occam's Razor. Stop thinking so hard.
preacher1
preacher1 2
It could be that the weather and fuel just caught up to him and was not planned, BUT, the fact that he didn't talk to ATC is puzzling. Had it been clear, what would he have done. The whole thing is weird.
N4196G
Craig Prouse 1
No, it's not possible that weather and fuel just caught up to him. That is completely implausible. The fact that he did not talk to ATC (when crossing the border, or when approaching Nashville) is not puzzling—it is EVIDENCE that he was not conducting a responsible flight in accordance with the regulations well known to Canadian and American pilots alike.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
I suspect he was doing a covert run for the CIA Wayne and the authorities were warned off to allow him to proceed. Of course they would never fess up. They have fancy radars so some operator somewhere would have noted that target. The guy had a criminal background it is claimed. In my view that is the key to understanding this accident. He wanted to be covert. More disturbing is the fact that he was not challenged by security services. Total neglect of due care to public safety, unless the flight was sanctioned by rogue factions of government.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I would not be so quick on the draw on that. I can agree that it is evidence he was probably up to no good but I doubt he planned to crash and die.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
He was facing charges on child porn, nothing to lose...
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
Justice. To bad about the plane.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
True, but cheaper than a trial.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
THRUST you told me you had a heart man..where is your sympathy for this guy. Who knows...maybe this guy was set up for this...the patsy in a game plan.
dougbrec
I have flown in both the UK and the US. My flight instructor in the UK turned off the Transponder and descended through the clouds to avoid having to pay the fees. I didn't see anyone running out to arrest us after we were clear of the clouds on the bottom side and began squawking again.

If you turn your transponder off, there is very little that a controller can do to distinguish between a flow of Canadian geese and a C172 in either country.
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
I guess that would work unless you unexpectedly got an A 380 flown into your ass on final.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT -4
Probably headed to NAMBLA, even though it's the wrong direction from Frisco...
btweston
btweston 1
So... He probably wasn't then.

[This poster has been suspended.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
Inbreeding
Derg
Roland Dent 3
Neanderthal throw back
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
Even funnier!!

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 2
the moroffs are even worse! ;-)
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 -1
bbabis
bbabis 3
Only one thing needs to be determined. Was the transponder on or off. If on, how was it missed for nearly 400 miles crossing a boarder and terminating at BNA? If off, it would of had to be intentional and who or what was waiting to be picked up at BNA? BNA may not have been the intended landing spot. A very large area was fog covered that early morn, and while low on fuel trying to sneak in on the ILS was the only option.
mpradel
Marcus Pradel 4
That's the real story. After spending a few Billion on the DHS apparatus, we can't seem to detect a C172 entering the country and flying without radio contact for 400miles. But DHS raids on pilots fling the system legally everyday are on the rise.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Have NSA check his cell phone records. He may have been meeting someone.
fche
Frank Ch. Eigler 2
It would be a shame if this was a criminal sort of border-crossing, and as a consequence normal law-abiding pilots were punished with yet more process.
james801
James Farnsworth 2
How do you miss a big fire on your runway for hours on end??? ATC has made a big boo boo if ya ask me.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
If he was running out of the fuel, the fire would probably not last too long. And the reports were that the part of the plane was seen NEAR the runway.
james801
James Farnsworth 1
It burned hard just by the looks of the pic's. Who Knows
shellyxd
shellyxd -3
Staff Writers shouldn't speculate. Go back to your cubicle and stay quiet.
james801
James Farnsworth 5
Well i don't get paid to be a "Staff Writer" for Flight Aware. I do it because i want to try and help others and share what i have learned in 17K hrs of flying. My cubicle is the left seat of a Boeing 777, 767 or 757 and King Air 200 and i would not trade the view for anything.

As far as speculating i think you will find 99.9% of what i post if fact based. Even in bad Weather ATC should have seen this guy that's a fact and their job per the FAA Reg's. I am sorry if you don't like me or if you are just having a bad day but that's your problem. Most people on FA that like or dislike me will tell you the above is 100% true of me.

Hope You have a nice day.


Fly Safe!!!
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 2
James thank you for your input to this thread. I'm fairly new to FA & enjoy every aspect of it. Too many desk jockies speak from opinion & speculation instead of fact. Can't take experience away from anyone. I hope you continue to contribute to FA as a staff writer regardless of the negativity of those without your professional training & experience. What you said is true re: the fact that ATC should have been able to have seen this guy but were most likely unable to communicate with him for whatever reason. The NTSB will sort it out & do a preliminary accident report that I believe they will post on their web site.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
I was wondering how long it was going to take you to come out of your cubicle...
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Yeah, that's all we need. Someone inserting opinion and theory based on experience and skill. That's just gonna hurt all the armchair quarterbacking from all those who have never gotten past a private ticket and downright embarrass those who have only operated MSFS in the spare bedroom.

Now, aren't you proud of yourself???

;-)
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 3
ATP's only! < >
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
MSFS - microsoft flight simulator ?
Any one with vee bit of knowledge of a flight sim would be highly cautious and respectful to comments made here and on other threads on this portal.
Why ? Because it is so easy to feel the depth of flying wisdom that gets displayed by so many experienced fliers. Which can be and is a great source of learning and inspiration for budding fliers in various aspects of aviation.
Says who ? Says me, a non aviator !
And I know I am right. Sorry for being so conceited.
james801
James Farnsworth 2
I don't think he was bashing me but I may be wrong. I an happy no matter what.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
Nope, I was being sarcastic.

Hence the smiley face at the bottom. ;-)
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
Think he was giving you a rah rah but bashing us less than worthy pilots and non aviators. I'm so hurt.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
OK! There for a while I was feeling like I just might die from the rejection. < >
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
Nawww... the only ones I'm sure to reject are those who put "Capt" in their mailing address but are ordering an FOI book. Then I look up their name on the FAA to discover they don't even have a commercial ticket and a barely dry instrument rating.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
I'm going to put Capt. on mine. I can't figure out how to edit it???
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Capt THRUSTT does have a nice ring to it.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but arrogance and lack of knowledge is more than likely based on the individual, not the rating they hold. I've seen private guys with more judgment and skill than higher rated guys...
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 0
Once again... Yes, I was being sarcastic.

With regard to the other part of your comment, statistically those with relatively new tickets are safer than those with simply a lot of time logged. However, some amount of logged time is not synonymous with experience. There's also a higher likelihood an incident will take place with an instructor on board than during a primary student's solo.

But generally, I'll trust an ATP in air carrier ops* before I will most pilots with regard to skill and experience.

*Not applicable to Air France pilots.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 2
Politeness never costs a dime !
Does it ? My friend shellyxd !
james801
James Farnsworth 2
Nope it is free. Nor does he know me ;-)

Hope you been good i been flying day after day with no time to play on FA :-(
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 2
ThanX for asking my friend James Farnsworth.
What surprises me the most about such portals is that why should ANYONE assume things about others ?
ALL are here (generally) as nameless and faceless persons. They could be nobody or real some body. And inbetween.
Therefore, I firmly believe that every one should use some caution while making strong comments.
All work no play makes Johnny a bad boy. Or some thing like that as the saying goes.
;-)
aeronicapilot
Andrew Duncan 2
I'm thinking airport operations may have dropped the ball as well, since a taxiing commercial flight found the wreckage.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Food for thought...has anyone ascertained if he was shooting an approach which I doubt if he wasn't IFR rated & ATC wasn't talking to him to give him vectors to the F.A.F. or runway @ IF the wreckage was found on the runway then @ what point was it found...approach...midpoint or departure end of the runway or was it found adjacent to the runway & @ what point adjacent to the runway was it found. Straight in equals a longer debris field than straight down as in a stall/spin scenario & again the type of damage will tell the story as to whether it was straight in or straight down.
bassam
bassam 1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Plane crashes at airport; no one notices

The Federal Aviation Administration says the plane crashed and caught fire overnight but went unnoticed for hours.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2013/10/30/dnt-unnoticed-plane-crash-nashville.wtvf.html
citation750xl
citation750xl 1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Small plane crashes at big airport; no one notices

- Authorities struggled to explain how a small plane crashed at an international airport, erupted in fire, but evidently went unnoticed for hours.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/29/us/plane-crash-mystery/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
projectabove35000feet
PATFTF PATFTF 1
How is the plane stealth?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You would think that with BNA being a 24 hour airport that someone would have seen something... This is just too crazy. Will be interesting to see what the NTSB determines.
WeatherWise
WeatherWise 1
To make it even more interesting, the pilot, identified as 45 year old Michael Callan, is one of four men being charged in connection with a Canadian child pornography ring.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
So far nobody knows nothing. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Lunarstorm777
(v)e Same 1
Hmmm..Ok, random stealth cessna appears and lands nose first, whatever, plenty of folks here to speculate on that. My question though, is how did this thing sit so close to the runway / taxiway and no one saw it FOR 7 HOURS?!?! I get it, fog was bad, but even so airport ops / airport cops do runway & taxiway sweeps all night long (least at my airport they do anyway). I would imagine even in 1/4 mile vis that would be kinda hard to miss, especially if it did in fact burn for any length of time. So, did they take the night off?
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
I also have a theory. It was foggy, the acft crashed on or near the runway but no one knows at what time, & how much fuel was on board which could have been minimal resulting in a flash fire extinguishing itself quickly. The video I viewed of the accident scene showed fairly foggy conditions and the accident acft but it was somewhat difficult to ascertain how much & to what extent the acft burned. The NTSB will find the facts & we'll see how close they come to all the speculation by the desk jockeys giving their opinions here. We have very few facts at this time. The NTSB will determine his last point of departure, whether the pilot refueled & if anyone saw him depart. The NTSB will also determine why the acft wasn't discovered right away....probably due to very dense fog & again no one knows the accident time.
housw
Tom Housworth 1
Curious why no radio contact with any ATC Facility especially with weather conditions as described? Possible equipment problems???
moorview
william hunt 1
The sad death of the pilot and total loss of the aircraft is very tragic indeed, but the possibility of an even worse catastrophe could have easily evolved, had another aircraft used this same runway to land in poor vis, with the wreck not being seen by the pilot.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
In defense of the ground personnel who patrol the airport grounds & the tower personnel who would have been in contact with the pilot had he called them...why would one be looking for an acft they were not expecting. I'm sure none of these personnel sat around thinking someone was going to fly into their airport traffic area unannounced on such a foggy night without an IFR flt plan. Center controllers/approach controllers would have known he was there had he filed an IFR flt plan...but apparently he didn't hold an IFR rating. Most everyone I fly with has portable transceivers as a back up & a PLB along with the ELT in the acft....which raises the question of why it didn't activate if it didn't & if it did it would give a closer approximation of time that the accident happened.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
Randy...that's plausible. The only one that knows exactly & totally as to what occurred to cause the accident cannot tell us. Still, apparently, he had no IFR or VFR flt plan.
Derg
Roland Dent 1
I take it there are no security risks on his route. Maybe the NORAD people in the radar rooms are used to an unidentified small aircraft traversing a good stretch oh the USA. Just another drug trafficer...why bother? A terrorist with an evil intent...who cares? The CIA on a covert mission...don't even think about it just let them get about there business. From a European view we look across at the USA and note that you have a mega arsenal of war machines operated by the National Guard and the FBI. Now maybe the visibility was so bad that no authority aircraft was sent out to check this out. Then again they might have so many "unidentified targets" that they just don't bother, especially in nasty weather. While any pilot has freewill I just cannot understand how the aircraft, without a logged plan, got so far across the Canadian border deep into TN. Maybe they only send up the military when the object is clearly "a threat to national security". Lots of questions here why this aircraft was not challenged by the USA military working with the National Guard.
1rocky1
Walt Leuci 1
where he crashed on the tarmac will certainly help determine if he entered a stall/stall spin scenario, along with the type of wreckage pattern which will help tell a lot as to what angle he landed. If he wasn't at the approach end of the runway suffice it to say he probably was coming straight down instead of straight in. If the engine quit before he hit the prop will have a different damage pattern than if it was turning when he went in.
devsfan
ken young 1
Ok...This is a 24 hr international airport. And no one in the tower even saw this aircraft on radar? And no one not even ground personnel noticed a plane in a heap ON FIRE on one of the runways.
How many people were copping Z's?
devsfan
ken young 1
Ok ... I should have read some posts. Yep the WX was not good with low Vis...
Orville1000
Orville1000 1
Drug trafficker? The C172, a rental from the Windsor Flying Club, had no active transponder, made no communication with ATC. Just swooped down in fog and darkness somewhere between 2am and 3am. Makes no sense if were a legitimate pilot. A legit pilot would be in radio contact with Nashville Intl. ATC, probably placed in a hold or diverted. The guy stealthed it onto Rwy02, went splat. Tower can't see through fog. No x-ponder = no ground radar. Airport crew that sweeps the runway before the crash won't be able to discover a crash scene that hasn't yet occurred.
ChadPeters
ChadPeters 1
How does a crash go undiscovered for so long? Not something you want to read about.

bit.ly/1aRVQwj
dougbrec
An airplane becomes stealthy when you turn the transponder off. The controllers can't tell if you are a flock of Canadian geese or a C172.
dougbrec
I guess I was wrong. It was a fugitive running from the law with his transponder off. Probably trying to sneak into the US when he ran out of fuel and out of weather.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
was not noticed ! ?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Many assumed that he was shooting an ILS approach because it's not really possible to make a visual approach when you can't visualize the runway through the pea soup fog.

But as you astutely point out a small compact crash scene would more likely indicate a stall, which would be more consistent with the report of a plane slowly circling the airport before a crash was heard.

The question is if that's true, why the authorities wouldn't have been notified of the crash?

There are many interesting unanswered questions that need to be addressed. That will nit reduce the amount of speculation and discussion. If anything, it provides even more reason for people to speculate.
devsfan
ken young 1
Kind of reminds me of a story my brother who at the time was a firefighter at PANC.
They had Korean Airlines cargo 747 go down after clipping the fuselage of a general aviation craft that had gotten 'lost' and was taxiing on a runway when the cargo 747 was cleared for takeoff.
He said the fog was so think it took two days to find all the parts of the 747
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Not by anyone who's talking at any rate.
kea001
Tom Kearney 1
“I have no idea what the hell he was doing in Nashville.” - Windsor Flying Club President

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/10/29/one-dead-after-windsor-registered-plane-crashes-in-nashville/
Smokeater046
William White 1
Was this pilot on an IFR flight plan operating under "radio out" procedures, or was he a rogue pilot that went against everything? If he was on an IFR flight plan, or just a flight plan at all, there should have been a missing/overdue aircraft report? Until the investigation is complete, no one will ever know what happened. However, I do not see how a plane crash on an international airports field can go unnoticed.
millsdo
Lee Mills 1
Why are we speculating? Just let them investigate.
CaptainFreedom
CaptainFreedom 1
I doubt that he was NORDO IFR in a 172. He may have just encroached the control zone and TCA silently, for whatever reason. I'm not going to assume that radio contact was even established with Nashville tower.
afarr
Allan Farr 2
Because it's fun and interesting:)
bizjets101
biz jets 1
Note the quote above, '....doing in Nashville' is taken and presented way out of context - and very misleading.

If you read the full article, the interviewer is clearly talking to an upset person who has been dealing with authorities throughout the day.

He clearly states the pilot was legally flying the aircraft and was a member in good standing. The one sentence taken out of context above hints that there was some nefarious reasoning behind the flight to Nashville.

Note the quote below also in the article;

“He flew to Nashville, he tried to land on the runway there and apparently it was fogged in,” said Gillies, who spent much of the day Tuesday dealing with authorities in relation to the crash. “Now I don’t know why he did that, but that’s what he did. He tried to land anyway, and it didn’t work.”
crogy46
tony jaya 0
what was the Tower Staff doing????? was it unmanned ?? cannot imagine a thing like this happening in the US where aviation plays a huge role in daily Life...Unbelievable ?? or is it another one of those US saving Programmes ????
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Was it designed the 'stealth plane' way ?
mwenkman
mark wenkman -1
Home land security ???. Sleepy controller, EMS failer, Maybe Washingtons congress can investigate and connect all the dots. No, game over !!!,
mwilliams78
mwilliams78 -4
I have a theory... I am interested to see if anybody thinks this holds water: this Canadian night rated vfr only pilot takes off in Windsor (practically Detroit) for a night cross country. Not long after leaving, the alternator fails. He shuts off the gps and thinks "I have 5 hours of dual instrument training... I'll just follow the DG" but between the night flying, the DG drifting (they all do) he ends up lost and in the clouds and way off course. He finally catches a glimpse of runway lights and decides he has had enough after 3+ hours and tries to land. He probably burned up most of his fuel if he made it to Nashville which explains little to no fire.
I think this could be the result of one small equipment failure compounded by several bad decisions.
MRICCIOTTI
M RICCIOTTI 3
Your theory is missing this part.
From the Windsor Star....
"That’s what he filed a flight plan for, was Pelee Island,” said Gillies. “Pelee Island is half an hour from Windsor Airport. He called the flight information centre in London and closed that flight plan about a half hour after he placed the flight plan.”

Why do you close your flight plan then keep flying for 3.5 hours?

I do not think it was equipment failure.
dougbrec
There have been reports that the pilot was wanted for child pornography in Canada. He was flying with his transponder off and hoping to hide in the US.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Looking for a safe haven ?
And found the best one !
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Don't know about 'best' but the Feds sure don't have an extradition treaty that can touch him.
8-)
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Small plane crash Nashville International - 1 dead

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -
At least one person is dead following a Cessna-172 single engine plane crash Tuesday morning at Nashville International Airport.

The Metro Nashville Airport Authority said the accident happened around 9:15 a.m. on Runway 2C.

It was not immediately clear if the plane crashed on take off or during landing.

Nashville's News 2 has several crews at the airport.

http://www.wkrn.com/story/23816717/nashville-airport-plane-crash