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Squawks & HeadlinesNewport Beach seeks new John Wayne takeoff path to lessen jet noise

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Newport Beach seeks new John Wayne takeoff path to lessen jet noise

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At John Wayne Airport, planes already take off at a steeper angle. If the city has its way, they'll also travel in an S-curve above Upper Newport Bay, away from homes. (www.latimes.com) More...

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canuck44
John Donaldson 16
These will be the first people to whine and demand intervention when any airline that already has a marginal return here drops service and the remaining airlines jack up their prices or the whiners are inconvenienced by having to commute to LAX to get a flight longer than 1000 miles.
n7224e
BC Hadley 16
If it really was about noise pollution, they could start with Harleys and modified mufflers. (Which you'd probably find in a few garages of those wealthy neighborhoods.)
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 24
These are important people. They have Starbucks everyday.
dpherman
Doug Herman 6
Some of them also have bizjets. That fly out of SNA. Bet they don't get unhappy about THAT aircraft noise ...
preacher1
preacher1 10
Well, the story says they are "MOVER AND SHAKER TYPES" and like James says here below, they have Starbucks everyday. LOL
jkudlick
Jeremy Kudlick 28
And then the residents will complain when the first plane stalls on this new flight plane and crashes, saying that it's a dangerous airport.

It's only a dangerous airport because you idiots moved under the flight path!!!
andytyler
Andy Tyler 3
any other suggestions for a fully loaded 757 to take off from a 5200ft runway?
travelsonic
frod fsdf 1
Fully loaded? Impossible, aircraft are weight restricted - largely because of the runway length [5,701FT] amongst other reasons.
goatesnotes
goatesnotes 2
Actually, it was a small regional airport with accompanying SMALL planes when many people moved into their houses. I personally know people who have live there for 40-50 years. A very FEW flights started to serve other areas in the mid-50's and has grown since then. But were no big planes at that time. You had to go to LAX to get a commercial flight out of town. Just saying. The bigger flight increase came in the 80's. So it became a more dangerous airport when they tried to make it work, sending big planes out of a small airport, with a runway bounded on BOTH sides by high-traffic freeways. And by the way, it is the shortest of any major airport in the United States and there's not room for expansion without totally cost-prohibitive funding. So the dangers are already intrinsic. Yet they have done a quite amazing job working within the confines of size and accodating the homes, and we're all exceedingly grateful not to have to drive to LAX!!! We LOVE our OC Airport and don't mind the Disneyland take-off. (SO much better than a drive north on the 405!)
Cactus732
Cactus732 1
It's not dangerous for a 757. Without the climb gradient requirement, a 757 would still perform a de-rated takeoff from SNA. Where it gets tricky are aircraft with limited power, like the Airbus A321.
Pileits
Pileits 1
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Interestingly, there are 757s scheduled into and out of SNA all day, including United to several hubs, including nearby LAX. That's one powerful bird.

But not a single A321 can be found on the schedule at all. That should tell you something.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The short answer is that 757 is more appropriate for SNA than the A321.

The 757s were built with more power to be able to accommodate shorter runways and runways at altitude, and in hot climes. The 757 is among the jets with the shortest takeoff roll.

SNA is at sea level, but has the other two of the three. SNA's main runway, at 5,701 feet (1,738 m), is the shortest of any major airport in the United States. Southern California is often amomg the warmer spots in the US.

The A321 has the same wings as the A320 and A319, with slightly more thrust per engine. Why carry all that extra metal (and the extra fuel to carry that extra metal), if it means you may have to leave some seats empty and the cargo hold partially unfilled sometimes, in order to be able to safely takeoff on SNA's runway.

So what does it tell you that thr A321 isnot scheduled? While airline traffic planners are not gods, if in their collected wisdom, a plane is not suitable for a particular airport, they don't schedule it. The lack of scheduling gives you a hint about the airline planners' perception about the suitability of the A321 (or lack thereof) for the conditions at SNA.

The 757 is the biggest jet that lands at SNA. You don't see 767, 777, 747, A330, A340, and A380. Not familiar with the takeoff performance of the 787, but the 787 and A350 will likely also not be used at SNA. While they have the shorter A319/A320, the A321 seems to be missing there.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
You'll have to spell it out for me. What's the point? What should it tell me?. The 321 is under powered and incapable of the climb out and glide? The 321 is too small and uncomfortable for their prestigious butts? There are too many things to guess at. :-)
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
It tells me nobody is flying a 21 out of SNA. Bout it for me.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
SNA also has lots of 737s, RJs, and private jets.
travelsonic
frod fsdf 1
Actually, didn't UPS or FedEx fly Airbus A300s into/out of SNA at least for a time?
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I'm sure he had something else in mind but he gave me too much credit as a sooth sayer and mind reader.
AB1946
AB1946 9
This idea is absurd, to say the least. It's a known fact that take off and landing are the most crucial parts of a flight. Any mechanical failure could be catastrophic and so could a bird strike or weather anomalie. Adding an "S" curve to a take off is just plain idiotic!
clippedcub
craig kampen 9
I often wonder about people who build a house next to an Airport that has been there for years and complain about the noise. BTW anyone who considers John Wayne as scariest Airport hasn't been in Aspen or Vail or Telluride.
preacher1
preacher1 5
Especially since there is already a noise abatement power pull back and steep climb anyway
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 10
I took off at 7 am a few months ago, pulled back, climbed steep and still busted the third sensor out...Ask me if I care!!!
Cactus732
Cactus732 2
If the power pull back effects safety of flight the airlines won't do it.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 3
BWI went through the same thing a few years ago but we have more room here. The State had to buy out some residents and then created an "airport impact zone", so mostly commercial and industrial under the approaches and departure routes now. Westinghouse Air Arm then Northrup-Grumman now owns a lot of property in the area.
TXCAVU
Or Jackson Hole. That'll put some hair on your chest.
Cactus732
Cactus732 1
Not a scary airport for most of the traffic, but I bet it's unpleasant for the A321 crews. Definitely agree those airports in the mountains are a much tougher test for the pilots.
AccessAir
AccessAir 7
I have no use for NIMBYS!!!!!!!!!
jatherton
John Atherton 10
In Newport Beach they aren't NIMBYS, they are BANANAS (Build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything)...
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 3
Some may be BANANAs in theory. But in practice, they like their nice expensive homes and don't want to be bothered. In practice they're all NIMBYs, and have the money and attitude to make things change (or at least to be able to make some people's lives miserable until they get what they want.)
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Some might misunderstand that, but what you are saying is straight news reporting. ROFL!
wingbolt
Todd Wilson 5
I bet they don't mind airplane noise when that DC-10 is fire bombing the fire in their back yard.
wingbolt
Todd Wilson 3
They also make A/C freon out of rose petals and bullets out of marshmallows.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 2
I've been reading over the last few days that the ingrates where the 9 fire fighters died don't want to pay the widows their full death benefit. Wonder what they'll do when no one comes in to help one day.
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
Those people that they saved and helped are not the same people that promised the survivor families help.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
One day a fire or something like it will threaten these folks and no one will be available to help because they won't want to pay them what hey are due.
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
you mean water bombing ya fool lol.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
Well the saying is fight fire with fire...

[This poster has been suspended.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
Years ago in CYUL in the 25's you'd bust it regardless of cutback in the early am. We would just lay the power on and watch the neighborhood light up since we were getting fined anyway...
btweston
btweston 1
What do you fly?
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 4
Phil's retired, he's the Captain of his computer...
joelwiley
joel wiley 4
The next step will be a lot by lot opt out for wealthy residents. A great way for the pols to get campaign funding. It will look something like the Kai-Tek checkerboard on the ifr plate just horizontal! Don't fly over the orange squares.
mjl1966
mike lawrence 2
LOL. Fine per "block violation"
Moviela
Ric Wernicke 7
This is the same crowd that has used junk science pollution laws in the past month to ban fire rings on the beach. This is a century old California tradition, but that was brushed aside by politicians that slurp funding from this community of wealth and power. What they really want is no one allowed on the beach. Now they want no one in the air, so they are using noise rules to prosecute their case. Their goal is to close the airport one nibble at a time.

The takeoff is too steep now. These over indulged self-appointed monarchs now want to endanger the flying public and their own neighbors on the ground. Let me tell you what to do with your S curve!

I say let them eat cake.
TXCAVU
I grew up near there and have friends who live on the beach. The cliche is "Malibu South". But of course they want convenient flights on roomy planes at closeby SNA. Remember what happened when they suggested turning MCAS El Toro into a replacement for SNA?
jddre
JD Drey 1
No worries, pretty soon they will TAX everyone out of the state and nobody will be there, then they can do as they please.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 4
Wonder what they ask for when they move next to a railroad track or a freeway?
preacher1
preacher1 2
Been more than one railroad relocate because they got tired of the bitching and been more than one housing addition/apartment complex has been built next to a freeway and the Highway folks got to put up noise suppression at taxpayer expense. Bristol and GSO/WS comes to mind.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Non issue, electric trains and Priuses
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 6
Everybody wants their cake and to eat it too. A big part of the reason government at all levels are failing by the scores.
jddre
JD Drey 2
Failing in public opinion, yes, but you see: they don't care. As long as SOMEONE is elected to an office they will simply continue to line their own pockets - nothing EVER changes except the people sitting in the (political) offices.
btweston
btweston 1
Yes. Let's drive those whiny rich folks and their influence right out of town!
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 4
It crosses all financial lines. And the politicians try to appease all to get votes. If I was an uppety rich person I damn sure wouldn't live by a busy commercial airport. I'd be neighbors with Travolta at a private airport. Lol
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 3
The only trains by me are freight trains loaded with coal: and rednecks don't drive Priuses. Lol
RECOR10
RECOR10 8
No one with self esteem drives a Prius.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Incognito.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 2
I live 3 DME under the approach end of 22 at BWI just South of Baltimore.On final, traffic is a mere 500 ft, on departure traffic is a little higher with thrust and at other times it is the North South transition through the controlled airspace, so lots and lots of helicopters, business and medical heading for Johns Hopkins and Univ. of Md, Shock Trauma, never mind the traffic inbound to DCA at 10K decendind. Lets just say, mor air traffic than the average neighborhood. Nothing vibrates off my walls and I hardly notice air traffic at all. On the other hand, 3 DME from the end of 15R is a Lowes whose lawn and garden dept is directly under the departure route and you can't hear your own words in a conversation. Could it be the architecture causing some of the problems?
jbsimms
James Simms 2
If I'm not mistaken, San Diego had the opportunity to use Miramar as the new airport when the base was considered for shutdown. The city refused it. Sounds like the same situation here.
Captaindl
Captaindl 2
Since they are not happy with the airport then Mayor Keith Curry should just close the airport. Then the "movers and shakers" and move and shake all the way to LAX.
k9gsd1
Robin Rebhan 2
Funny mentality indeed.
At Albany Medical Center, Albany, NY a couple years ago residents in the area had a petition going around to ban Med-flights from bringing in trama patients by helicopter.
And at Schectady County Airport (KSCH) residents were complaining in the local paper about C130's takeoff and landings. Of course the Editor did not post my comment "Sleep well it is brave men that are making the Sound of Freedom".
People don't care until German Officers are hogging all the seats at outdoor cafe's in Paris.
fulframe
Gary Hjelm 2
It is hard to imagine why they are now complaining about the airport location. Around 2000, give or take a few years, the good people of Southern Orange County had the vacated Marine Air Corps station at El Toro, that was in their possession. This facility was used by some of the biggest jets in the world, but between the Irvine Company and few other important souls, it became a park. This airport could have worked for them well into this century, but all the good people in Orange County (LA) couldn't have cared less. You're not going to build a regional airport in my backyard was the cry. Nimbyism has struct again. So, now the City of Newport Beach wants the airlines to fly an s-curve while they are climbing out at the maximum angle at 80% power. Sounds like a recipe for having a large passenger jet come and visit these people on the ground. The FAA will most likely say no, and Congress will over-turn that decision, and Newport Beach will have their wish granted.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
I loved the phrase 'Reduce power and glide' while describing exaggerated departure climb out.
jddre
JD Drey 1
Simple. Airlines: Don't fly into John Wayne. Force the people that want to travel to go to LAX. It's probably the people that live near the airport that b!tch about it, and I bet those SAME people use that airport. Just simply make 'em all travel to Ontario, and go from there.
jbermo
James Bermingham 2
Few remember that John Wayne himself was on the anti airport coalition here during his final days alive. County officials, after his death, then named the airport after him (go figure). For this, John has probably been rolling in his grave.
btweston
btweston 1
That guy sure did look tough in a controlled environment.
firefly62
Eric Shepherd 1
Well bless their pampered little hearts... and poodles too! THEY moved to the area, planes, noise, higher traffic... duh! Quit complaining just because you have nothing else to do with your time.
DennisP10
Dennis Peek 1
JW is a great little airport but the approach and takeoff is a bit hairy. I have been on a Delta 757 that had to abort his landing and do a go around. The takeoffs make you wish for a catapult.
Nrice91
Noah Rice 1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

America's scariest airport could add more thrills with 'S-curve' takeoff

I'd like to see what this " S-curve" would look like.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/07/newport-beach-john-wayne-airport-takeoff
dee9bee
dee9bee 1
I grew up three miles off the end of 19R, so I know the area well. Pilots already make a turn at 1 dme, from 193 to 175 degrees, supposedly to keep aircraft pretty much flying down the bay. I wouldn't think the proposed turns would be even as large as the one they already do but this won't reduce the noise level one bit.
jimnbubba
James Gibson 1
They should have used El Toro and shut JW down
egnilk66
Dan Klinge 1
SHhhh..... I hear rich people...
markchargis
Mark Hargis 1
Try telling the spoiled brat Newport residents instead they will close the airport and they can just drive to LAX for a flight. See how fast their attitude changes.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
This makes me laugh. In my short tenor on this old earth I have seen this same scenario so many many times. If it's not an airport, large or small, it's a quarry or mine. People move in and around the existing facility, start complaining about the noise or dust or what ever and some idiot judge agrees with them
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
Anybody who knowingly moves into a home under any type of flight path to any airport thinking that they or a neighborhood association will reign over that specific airport is suffering a severe case of cranial rectal inversion!
dpherman
Doug Herman 1
Same problem here in San Diego. Only without the excuse that "The airport was small/not there/a lot quieter when I bought my home." People are still buying and building under the westbound takeoff pattern from SAN. And still bitching about the noise. Odd how many people on their house-buying tours with their realtors somehow failed to notice the SAN departures overhead. Maybe they were so busy taking in the bay views that a departing MD-8x blasting out of town somehow was missed.
Quackers
Quackers 1
I've flown in and out of KSNA a few times. Love the take off's especially (full power at the beginning of the runway etc). Should make for an even more interesting takeoff now
jbsimms
James Simms 1
An accident waiting to happen
mjl1966
mike lawrence 1
On a related note (this would be an RNAV procedures), I seriously hope we are NOT moving to GPS for primary navigation. If a VOR goes down, there are plenty of alternates and you send somebody in a truck to fix it. If a satellite goes down, well, we don't even have a space shuttle anymore. GPS = 6 satellites away from total disaster. I don't think that's very smart. As an alternate system, sure, but VOR-based jetways should still be primary.
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 1
Robin WTF does your post have to do with the price of tea in China?
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 2
well people obviously can't hear when their heads are buried in their asses.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
Usually the real estate bitches' mouths are louder than a jet.
Pileits
Pileits 1
You got that right. LOL
k9gsd1
Robin Rebhan 1
I was metaphorically writing. And perhaps too brief.
German Officers hogging seats at Cafes in Paris is a metaphor for world war suggesting people wouldn't mind when the whole world is at war, the noise of planes at nearby airport in defence of their country and precious portfollio.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
Solutions by armatures seldom accomplish what they set out to fix. Sounds generated by a dirty airplane under power would be pretty difficult to predict. How do they get rid of the procedure if it doesn't work? bureaucracies don't generally fold up and go away. Maybe SWA and the other air carriers will solve the problem and just cancel all their flights out of the facility
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 1
And who do you suspect will bear the blame?
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I read these people are wealthy. Surely they wouldn't ride SWA.
jddre
JD Drey 1
armatures?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The landscapers, pool cleaners, maids, and drivers can't afford bizjets, so SW may be their mode of air transport (that is if they can provide gov't issued ID to get past TSA). And not everybody can afford to live in these sea-side upscale towns. There are normal people in OC, well maybe not normal people, but let's call them unwealthy.
Pileits
Pileits 0
How about adding an additional (LARGE) ticket tax (perhaps TWICE the cost of the ticket) related to noise abatement takeoff requirements that could allow the city enough money to BUY out those complainers.
pwreschi
I wonder if these people know how to look at a map. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to lessen the noise that isn't already in place, outside of shutting down the airport. But then they'll complain about not having an airport nearby.
LordLayton
Leighton Elliott 0
These idiots would not have anything to complain about anymore. Quick call the waaaaaaaahmbulance!
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Out of the box idea, but it'll never work, at least not the way you suggest.

1. There is too much property and it's way too pricy for a ticket tax scheme be able to fund.

2. But if you tax all flights at 200% of cost, you will immediately destroy the entire market for both commercial and general aviation out of SNA. Rarely will you encounter someone willing to pay triple to fly out of SNA instead any number if airports a little further out.


3. If you only tax commercial aviation, then you'll only kill commercial flights and leave the private jet flights that some of your biggest opponents to SNA noise want anyway. No noise unless it's my noise.
fleigle
Max Perry -1
What an absolute crap article !!!