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Squawks & Headlines(Video) NTSB Chairman's Monday Briefing on Asiana 214

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(Video) NTSB Chairman's Monday Briefing on Asiana 214

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On Monday afternoon, the NTSB Chairman discussed the status of the investigation and provided in-depth information on the altitude and airspeed of the plane during the final approach. (www.youtube.com) More...

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bbabis
Bill Babis 7
Gear down and locked, turn off automation, heads up and locked, case closed. How much more money do we have to waste to see that this is a bad technique? What we will get from this is a nagg light and voice anytime the automation is off saying "Fly the airplane, Fly the airplane, Fly the airplane..."
james801
James Farnsworth 3
This is well worth the 45 min's to see.
pilot62
Scott Campbell 2
NO DRUG OR ALCOHOL TEST FOR THESE CLOWNS, I'M SORRY BUT THIS IS INSANE !
We need to act now !!!! mandate a law that any carrier flying into the US must submit to a drug and alcohol test after any incident that involves damage to anyone or anything.

So as it is, ... they could have taken out the United 747 on the taxiway and NEVER submit
to these tests, UN #$$%%%^%& - real we are joke unitl this is changed, we should all be
outraged !!!!
preacher1
preacher1 1
I was thinking that one of the News stations said they had been D&A tested as per was standard in a crash, and that was Saturday afternoon
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
The firefighters were D&A tested per protocol but not the Korean pilots. Had they been American pilots D&A testing would have been mandatory.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Why in hell were the firefighters tested?
clyd
David Graham 1
Phil Rudd your comment regarding all European and Asian pilots needs to be more measured and circumspect. Blanket statements without any information to substantiate those comments are unhelpful to the rest of this discussion community many of whom come from those countries. Unless of course you are claiming this forum and community is only reserved for insular US pilots.
sddaledawson
Dale Dawson 1
it was way worse than what we could find here at F A just hope its not what it looking like at this point airspeed way below Vmc for the 300 er
jpcooper
Peter Cooper 1
No drug or alcohol tests!! Is that standard procedure in the U.S.? In Australia our bus drivers are required to do drug & alcohol tests if they have been involved in any form of accident, as well as having to comply with random d & a tests whenever requested. I'm not entirely convinced that the U.S. Government has got this right. The flight crew may be entitled to their " civil liberties " but there's 20 times more pax in the back and their entitlements to expect a drug and alcohol free crew simply outweigh that of the crew. I have to agree with Scott. If you as a carrier wish to fly into the U.S. then one of the requirements is that your aircrew are required to provide mandatory d & a tests whenever required. No argument, no dissention.
onedishaday
Colin Varndell 1
Since my total flying experience at the controls of an aircraft was restricted to three lessons in a single engine two seater, curtailed when I ran out of cash I will not comment on the likely cause of this crash. However I have been taking to the air for the past 60 years as a passenger and I do know that out of every aviation accident comes a big positive, Flying gets even safer. My sympathy goes out to the families of the two young girls who died and of course those who were seriously injured. Speculation as to the cause is rife across the internet with pilot error rearing its head as firm favorite. As in all cases of this nature it is prudent to keep quite and let the experts do their jobs. Quite often things are not as clear cut as they seem.
sddaledawson
Dale Dawson 1
here is a link released 7/8 on the ground at the crash site the debris field at the end of the runyway sat 7/6 lots of big chunks and small ones too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHBhaXJVhbg
bbabis
Bill Babis 2
Some good points Colin, but I will point out that Government "experts" run Social security, the IRS, medicare, medicaid, obamacare, the federal reserve, the state department, fannie mae, the military...etc. How's that working out for us? We've kept quiet way too long. You are more of an expert than you think. As far as good things coming out of this, maybe, but doubt it. The NTSB and its recommendations may have actually played a direct role in this accident and several past accidents by taking the pilot more and more out of the loop with their reliance on automation.
paultruzzi
Paul Truzzi 1
I think we will see recommendations on things that can be done to improve seats and how they are attached and changes to escape slides. Perhaps more fire resistant insulation (assuming that's what burned). Even from a "good" crash like this, where most safety features seemed to work lessons will be learned.
onedishaday
Colin Varndell 1
Point taken bill, I am from just outside London England so it would be rude of me to pass comment on your government departments as I have little experience of how they operate and of course I am not a US citizen but from reading your thread they seem to work in a similar fashion to ours if you take my point. I also agree with your comment on how automation is taking the pilot right out of the loop. There have even been some comments from Airbus here in Europe that the technology already exists for aircraft to fly to any destination with no pilots whatsoever.I dare say you are hearing similar rhetoric from boeing in the USA. Of course most of us with varying degrees of interest in aviation already know this but I will say this bill. when planes no longer need a pilot, and that day will come then that will be the day that I stop flying.
preacher1
preacher1 1
It is pointed that way. They are interview crew today. They were going to yesterday but could not get interpreters in until today. It will be interesting.
metrobiz
Delta Whiskey 1
• The FAA-NASA ASRS (Aviation Safety Reporting System) - that we need similarly in U.S. "health"care - was derived from the BRITISH AIRWAYS highly-regarded & effective pilot self-reporting system. • European ATC is an amalgam of former enemy & partisan nations. • Flying elsewhere in the world mostly excludes light GA, massive military training (in the Old South) & drones in airspace, increasing safety in theory. (A 40-yr instrument-rated GA pilot here.) • I've flown commercially all over the world, including China, Vietnam (VN Airlines operating (at the time) 2 B777's) & in Russia & Ukraine on Aeroflot's YAK-42's, twice in the cockpit (Moscow >< Donetsk) by invitation as an "American pilot!" Now that'll give you an uneasy buzz.
preacher1
preacher1 1
in reality, part 129 ought to be done away with and all be subject to part 121 as American carriers are. While it is always been there, there needs to be something done about the language. I hear it often and some is better than others, but I could not understand them boys on the ATC tapes the other day.

[This poster has been suspended.]

randomguy
john public 4
Per the video (topic of this squawk) they want to have interpreters so that the questions are clear and understood, and the answers are clear and understood to reduce the chances that anything is misinterpreted or misrepresented.

The level of fluency required to communicate with air traffic control and to have an in-depth discussion about everything that went on are very different levels.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I guess they want everybody comfortable. Seems there was some Koregian on the CVR
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Yeah I had a hard time with Koregian in high school...
tjoneillMO
Tim O'Neill 1
How do you say "Oh s*it" in Koregian?
preacher1
preacher1 3
Chi poly ma....Oh wait a minute that's MF. Just put an H in it Tim. That's universal.lol

[This poster has been suspended.]

akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 2
Mind your racist comments , please ! Many Asians are are working in sensitive positions all over the western developed world. Check out air accident records. Most of them happened when non Asians were in command !
chuba
chuba 1
"...they dont how and were never trained to think outside the box."

KAL seems to have fixed that. I remember a spate of mishaps involving them in the 80s and 90s, then after having embraced CRM their record improved drastically.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I don't know how well they fixed that, there are a bunch of horror tales of expat. Captains not faring too well in the Korean cockpit.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Yeah, I got a blog link from a friend yesterday about an ExPat Capain that spent 5 years over there, both with Asiana and KAL. It ain't good.
JakeSully
Jeremy Truesdell -1
It is truly tragic that these girls were killed, but we are incredibly lucky that the death toll is so low, considering the wreckage and the number of people on board. Looking at video from here (http://www.cnn.com/video/?%2Fvideo%2Fus%2F2013%2F07%2F07%2Fvo-plane-sf-plane-crash-on-cam.courtesy-fred-hayes) and the location of the 777's wreckage, it appears that the captain was coming in on the edge of a stall, slower than normal, and saw that he was coming in short of the runway. It appears that he then attempted to extend his glide, and his tail hit the sea wall on 28L. It can be assumed that one of three things happened: the ILS failed, the aircraft malfunctioned, or he took manual control and made a mistake. It is indeed common for a captain to make the final. The pilot-error theory is also logical because KSFO is a "special" airport because of the surrounding terrain: hills on one side and the bay on the other. Cpt. Chesley Sullenberger (ref: Miracle on the Hudson) stated that KSFO is a difficult place to land because the flat water affects your depth perception, and I have experienced this myself on simulators. Also, as of this morning, the SF coroner's office has stated that one of the students who were killed appears to have sustained "injuries consistant with being hit by a vehicle", possibly from a responding crash truck. As for the pilot "being in training", it falls to the check pilot to ensure that things are done correctly.
teutz
daniel klein -1
It seems that NTSB is not pointing fingers on pilot error...
However read here:
http://www.planecrashes.org/asiana-airlines-safety-record.html
randomguy
john public 2
daniel, I'm sorry to air this in this manner (public, off-topic), but I can't find a private message button.

To be perfectly honest, a lot of your posts and squawks feel like spammy links to this planecrashes.org site (is it yours?) being sensationalistic (implying that because asiana has had some incidents in the past [a few of which you've named were not pilot error], this one probably is too), misleading (labeling the ATC tapes as CVR recordings, when you knew they were not), new posts for every minor development (girls probably headed to camp! spinal injuries, a new info roundup post for 214), etc. Judging from the feedback (scores of your other squawks), I'm probably not the only one.

I appreciate that it is hard to get traffic to a new site, I suspect you are not garnering much good feelings from the audience here (unless the real goal is SEO) and that is going to detract from any good content you do have.
preacher1
preacher1 2
@john public: FYI, for future use, go to discussion on the tool bar and then click on messages. It is a recognizable Email format. Problem is it will not Email except to a handle, it will not allow you to message anyone using their proper name. That said, before you go in there, click on their profile and you will see their handle at the top.
randomguy
john public 1
thanks preacher1... now... how do I delete this post?
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
There is an undocumented way to do so. It is <********************************************>
preacher1
preacher1 1
You can't that I know of.lol. That was just for future use if you need it.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Where have you been in the time since the crash to offer such miraculous insight; that most pilots on here have been saying since before the 1st NTSB conference and I would add that this is their 2nd or 3rd.You must be part of the under informed public if you have to quote Sully and sing his praises. You must not have been around long enough to know that he is not at the top of everybody's favorite person list. Past that, welcome to Flight Aware
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
"Special Airport" ? How ? What about Saan Maarten ? Old Kai Tak ? Its successor at Chek Lap Kok ? Air strips in the Bahamas and the Caribbean, whether short or long ? And other strips made IN the sea ? And about height perception , what about Madeira on stilts ? In these times of instrumentation and virtual images , visual perception has absolutely no place until to the last. And this is what happened. But sadly, it was too late. To my humble mind, it was all about instrumentation . Let the "BB" speak in due course!
Yes , though for the grieving families number of fatalities has no meaning , yet considering over all situation and fitness of the machine , she withstood the impact reasonably well !
The narration of some passengers that on impact many passengers hit the ceiling of the cabin needs careful examination to redesign the safety belt system. Kindly refer to the much televised talk of a first class passenger who escaped from similar fate because he had a belt 'across' his chest also.
skylloyd
skylloyd 1
randomguy
john public 1
Three days later and he still doesn't know the ILS was NOTAM'd? It's like he didn't watch/listen to this conference, the last two, or read anything else about this incident.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Er.Ak- The design of the seatbelt doesn't need an examination...it's the people that put them on. If the seatbelt is not "Low" and "Tight" across your lap, an impact as hard as this one was, would most definately make you a human projectile. Most passengers think that just because they have their seatbelt on, they think that they are protected. Not so! If people want safety equipment to work properly, they must take Flight Attendant instructions seriously. This accident was a perfect example of passengers not wearing their seatbelts "Low and Tight" across their lap! No doubt, by not wearing the seatbelt properly, most likely the impact was such that it catapulted them to the ceiling and also was a possible cause of the spinal injuries that incurred.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
That was a high G touchdown. Seat belts are the answer to keep your head from hitting the ceiling but it is a different metric entirely when the ceiling hits your head.
JakeSully
Jeremy Truesdell 1
Yes, I saw that. I never have been comfortable in the lap belts, and prefer the shoulder harnesses. Anyways, sfo (which I live extremely close to) is designated as special by the FAA.
JakeSully
Jeremy Truesdell 1
I was simply quoting him.
preacher1
preacher1 2
He was part of a good thing as far as that landing that propelled him to a household word and is a good pilot but so are the other million + that are out here. Nobody is jealous of his position now, but he is nothing exceptional over any other commercial/ATP out here. That said, he has the publics ear and they think he is God's gift to the aviation world. You will find though, as time goes by, that not all of his peers agree with him.
skylloyd
skylloyd 1
Sounds as if you really have a hard on for Sullenberger, if I recall, the public escalated him to where he is, and he has always gave credit to his peers, in public and in his book. I think everyone needs to back-off and take a break.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
PREACH ON PREACHERMAN!!!
preacher1
preacher1 1
Putting all the other crap aside, 214 was too low and too slow. Only question remaining is why. They are interviewing crew this morning. Hopefully, that will bring the answer.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I really can't fault him for utilizing a bully pulpit now that he has it, BUT, he acts at times that he is speaking for everyone, the public takes it like that, he does nothing to dispel that feeling, and he does not speak for everyone all the time.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
I am not a 777 guy, but It looks like that at some point the plane was on automation and fast and auto-throttle had the power at idle. At 1800' the automation was turned off. From that point on there was a steady loss of speed and as the plane went 5 - 10 - 15 - 20... knots under REF no one thought to push the power back up until it was too late and only added to the accident.
preacher1
preacher1 1
sounds plausible. I'm 767 not 77 but I have been told not that much difference
preacher1
preacher1 1
You hit the nail on the head with this one. Training pilot said he ASSUMED that the AT was maintaining the speed. On a Boeing when you kill the A/P, you kill the rest of it. Someone said there was Airbus time here in the past and idk if their system is different or not. This a darn good example of a breakdown of the word ASS U ME.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Sad but it sounds like the culmination of an old joke. Captain to maintenance; "You need to adjust the Auto-land system. This plane lands rough." Maintenance to captain; "Sir, This plane doesn't have Auto-land."

So similar to the Air France crash. 3 Pilots in the cockpit looking at something and no one sees what the plane is doing until it is too late.
preacher1
preacher1 1
That actually sounds like the most plausible theory that has been offered here. Massive brain fart by somebody.
JakeSully
Jeremy Truesdell 1
I agree. My only use of an autopilot was the 747-400 FMS at NASA AMES, I made the mistake of turning off the autopilot and did not recognize that same issue until my friend called out that the airspeed was dropping, and I worked the throttle from 1000 to touchdown. my main problem though was the tiller....
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
That's what happened. The CVR and pilot interviews will show why. Was it a brain fart. Or could it have been a classic "Watch this" , "betcha I can land it from here without adding power" , or did the supervising pilot just let a bad situation go too far trying to teach a lesson before even he couldn't save it.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Could have been any of these. I guess we'll see here in a while
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
A pilot is probably special if they find SFO to be a challenge!!!
JakeSully
Jeremy Truesdell 1
I missed the part about the NOTAM.
JakeSully
Jeremy Truesdell 1
preacher1
preacher1 1
Very first conference I think but in some of the very first comments.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal -2
Nice PR job .