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Squawks & HeadlinesPC12 Crash In Lake Wales Florida Kills 3

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PC12 Crash In Lake Wales Florida Kills 3

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An airplane has crashed in Lake Wales on Walk-in-Water Road at 1:01pm killing three people. A witness to the crash has reported the plane was “twirling around" before it crashed. FAA inspectors have already been dispatched and are expected to arrive... (www.thefloridanewsjournal.com) More...

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onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 9
prayers go out to the families
25pilatus
Steve Edwards 15
As an pilot/owner of a Pilatus for the last 6 years I have to tell you there isn't much that can tear the plane apart. I hit some severe turbulence a few years ago and emergied without a scratch to me and the plane. That was when my shop told me about the two I-beams (literally) that serve as the wings spars. Hence, it takes A LOT to rip one off. I was flying yesterday as well (in good weather) and noted the awful weather down in Florida. About the only thing I could guess was the plane went smack into a thunderstorm...which is hard to believe when you see the cockpit of the new 47 model. He had more resources available to him than 99% of the pilots out there. Very sad.
garp
garp 6
Thanks for your insight. I spoke with another PC12 owner this afternoon who has only read the news accounts of this accident. He concurred that it's difficult to harm the aircraft within normal operating limits, but all bets are off in intense convective activity, especially because the rate of ice accumulation can easily outrun the aircraft's protective systems, inducing load factors which the aircraft simply wasn't designed to handle. He reserved judgment until more information is available. I, too, shall be watching for the NTSB's findings on this terrible tragedy.

Prayers for the victims, family and friends.
ThatOneDude
John Johnson 1
I used to work on PC-12/47E. Let me tell you that you are absolutely right about how stout that aircraft really is. I'm so sad to see one of these aircraft fall from the sky, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was because of an ADAHRS system failure known to occur in new 47Es. If he hadn't had the unit replaced per mandatory SB, then it very easily could have caused a steep, unrecoverable descent. As for the tumbling, there's no telling what could have caused that. But this is all pure speculation.

My prayers go out to the deceased and their family and friends.
jonjeffcoat
jonjeffcoat 5
Tragic but there always a chain of events. We All need to continue educating ourselves Flying is a practice, you never stop learning , whether it's articles in flying mag, aopas asf, or other peoples mishaps ect. My goal is not to be "the guy in the news"
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Their fate was sealed when the decision was made to proceed thru an area of convective activity. A tragic mistake!
poccet
poccet 9
God rest their Souls. An that relatives can forgive the father for possibly not having been as prudent as he should have been. The weather was certainly awfull over central Florida that day.
Get-home-itis is a killer. We we should never box-us-in to risk lives. Businessmen must learn to allow for bad weather.
A young father of four children under 5 years of age leases my A36 Bonanza.Experience pilot. He had all his family with him. This past week was returning from Michigan to Orlando and decided to spend four extra nights in TN because he felt the weather was to bad to continue to Orlando. He allowed his business pressures not to force his hand.
That's how it should be done.
Let's not play with other's lives. Can you imagine if only the father had survived?. I'd shoot mysefl.
guybac
Guy Bacon 4
In weather like that, the first and last/only decision is to leave the aircraft in the barn and try another time/day. Newer pilots that have more money than experience, Don't Know What They Don't Know. The newer glass avionics lend to "video game" feeling instead of good old fashion internal situational awareness. RIP.
LeeBurk
Lee Burk 4
Folks, it didn't break up in mid air and if one of the wings had come off it would be in the condition it's in. It looks pretty much intact. To me, it looks like he had some control and it crash landed on it's belly. I haven't seen all of the pictures but it's pretty intact. It certainly wouldn't be if a wing had've come off. It's going to wind up being something freaky. And if the debris field is miles long it's not much debris. If one of the children is missing and presumably sucked out in midair then I'd say something went wrong with a door. But everyone here is speculating.
conortodd
conortodd -1
http://www.baynews9.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/06/sky-9-plane-crash-5.jpg

Does that look like the wings are intact? The tail's completely missing and the wings look like something took several bites out of them. Severe turbulence will do that, even to a plane as burly as the PC-12.
Foxtrot789
Completely missing? Surely you must have been to the crash site then or have several other pictures of the entire area in order to make such a claim. Just the one photo you've posted is hardly indicative of that.
FedExCargoPilot
That Bull Sh*t!
guybac
Guy Bacon 0
PS: so you fly "envelopes" and not N1FE. That tells me a bunch, hot shot.
guybac
Guy Bacon 0
Wow! Since I know Roger Johnson, a FedEx 777 IP better than you do, I will disqualify you from any relevant comment. He monitors computers. Besides, you don't make 1/10 of enough money to be that arrogant. Fred Smith does. You don't. Peasants tend to be the foul mouth ones on the Internet .
localizer
Haha!!! I am sorry... that diatribe was funny! You used "arrogant" and "peasants" in the same post! Got a chuckle though!
Charleecrat
Peasants LOL
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Gosh!!! Talk about getting PERSONAL!!! OK everybody, let's take off the gloves and get the Beer and Chips out!
AJACOBS2
Alan Jacobson 7
This is a classic add 'em up... all of what happened may of contributed to the fatalities.
Im not into the Casey Anthony thing. I covered that trial. She'll get hers one day.
But the points were on the wrong side of the sheet, Someone wrote the weather was not that bad. I was in it on the ground and it was hell. The worst CB, CBMs, I have seen in five years...nothing I wanted to play in.
I was at the north end of Tampa International on the approach when the weather struck, and in seconds it went hairy. I pulled off the road. The commercial guys were at minimums just busting out over my head and you could hear them adding power. I watched some heavy metal really bounce. Weather is certainly a factor.
Add a low time pilot in type, rush to get home, 5 detractions in the cockpit probably scared, poor controller advice. Lots of things on the wrong side of the Franklin sheet. Let the NTSB do their thing. PC12s are fine aircraft, flying in Florida is safe if you plan right, mother nature is a bitch... G-d rest their souls...
Robbspace
Robbie Hyatt 3
RIP to Bramlage family members,
25pilatus
Steve Edwards 3
Lee, I am by far not an expert but your point makes sense. Someone did say in an earlier post that both doors were with the airplane. Either way, I am anxious to find out what happened since I fly one.
1639847
Looks like those YouTube stalls were done slow and dirty. If he was having upset problems at FL260 or so, he'd be going like hell and clean as a whistle; I'd think the stall would be even more pronounced and perhaps violent.
HA4T
John Kliewer 0
Good stall footage. Most airplanes intended to be flown by professionals will not stall straight ahead in non-event fashion. This airplane looks to be no exception to that rule.
crduesing
Incorrect, the PC12 has horrible stall characteristics and requires a stick pusher and shaker. If the push is inturupted recovery requires several thousand feet!
25pilatus
Steve Edwards 2
I won't get sucked into a debate with you but I will say this...I don't think anyone here is attempting to be an "expert" as you say. However, when you fly a PC-12 like I do, an accident like this really hits home. Which, in turn, causes you to really want to know how something like this could happen...if nothing else, so it won't happen to you!
727driver
Ted Beneigh 2
I suspect they tried to work there way around a severe thunderstorm. Numerous TRWs dotted the area at that time. Any altitude is bad to penetrate a TRW, but the mid 20,000 thousand is one of the worst due to seveer icing conditions. The wide area of the wreckage indicates an in-flight break up.
tarbaby
phil gibson 3
It that's the case.......not unusual inside a cell. Thunderstorms are VERY powerful!
mordann
mordann 3
N950KA talking to MIA Center @5:55 marker. Weather alert @ 6:48.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfpr/KFPR-App-Jun-07-2012-1600Z.mp3
May they rest in peace.
corso
corso 3
You are absolutely correct... They have on the average +6000'/min ascending and descending up and down drafts, enough to damage an airliner if they attempt to maintain Altitude or any other aerodynamic excesses.

It appears from the Pictures that the right wing broke about 1/3 and the left wing has the wingtip torn/pulled as if they were in left hand spin/flat spin, the airframe shows some torque ruptures within the same type impact.
shredjet
Steven Seshun 1
I don't have the clock counter on the player, but I heard some of it I think. I thought they were under the clouds so was it windsheer? But, they were at 260FL at the start of the event, correct?
arunhn
Arun Nair 2
Apparently they have found the body of the missing boy half a mile from the crash site..
http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/state/kansas/last-bramlage-child-believed-to-be-found-after-deadly-plane-crash

What a sad story!
siriusloon
siriusloon 2
As usual, all the "experts" come out of the woodwork and know what happened before the wreckage has stopped smouldering. If some of you know so much, why don't you volunteer your services to the NTSB? Of course, if you did that, you'd be held accountable for your conclusions and accusations.
tarbaby
phil gibson 2
This is just a Forum.....different opions....don't get all worked up.......this accident happened for reasons unknown...OK?
arunhn
Arun Nair 1
These statements just adds to the confusion.. (and the mid air breakup theory)

"Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said it appeared a part of one of the wings snapped off while the plane was in midair, creating a hole.

Boston was thrown from the plane before it crashed. He was found less than half a mile from the crash site.

More than 100 people searched thousands of rural, wooded acres to recover Boston's body. Judd said that there was no plane debris in the area where he was recovered."
steveanders77
Steve Anders 1
Prayers for the Family. Thanks for all the comments.. I too am wondering what went wrong. I have seen that plane before in Orlando.

Again, Thanks for all your interesting comment.
jbaugh3
john baugh 1
THe tail is severed and laying to the right of the aircraft. Indicating an abrupt skidding halt, or a left spin upon impact. the front and top of fuselage are identifiable and wings sustained about equal damage. Ie, it didnt cartwheel or slide into a tree. He was in a flat spin to the left. IN a normal spin the nose wouldve been pointed straight down and wreckage would have been compacted.
Mooney62L
Buz Allen 1
Steve I agree, the missing resource was a little common sense that seems to be leaving our society at an alarming rate! When I began flying in the USAF 1970 there were very limited resources with regards to WX. The crash rate of GA at that time was horrendous. The thing that is wrong with our newer generations of pilots is we want to place the Blame somewhere else! The Pilot-in-Command is the FINAL Authority and as such assumes the responsibility for the SAFETY of all ON Board, regardless of what Mother Nature deals out to us. I too am trained in the PC-12 by Sim Com and feel that they do an excellent job and that the aircraft is an excellent design. The questions we will probably not get answers to are the chain of events with regards to the 13yr. old. Did he panic due to the thrashing about in turbulence and decide he wanted OUT and bolt to the door and open it??? In any event they were way too close to a Severe CB and had their own resources to remain clear. After a B-52 was nearly completely destroyed by hail in 1971, while airborne and approximately 10 miles from a severe CB, SAC installed new policy to remain a Minimum of 25NM from known CB's. Good Policy!! I follow it to this day!
Charleecrat
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/06/08/3649150/becky-bramlage-killed-with-family.html

this article says the pilot issued a distress call 30 minutes after departing St. lucie, is there anywhere we can hear this? does flightaware have a copy? thanks in advance sorry I do not know where to look for it.
13Defender
13Defender 1
I find it impressive that a lot of people in this forum have already figured out the cause of the accident, especially given this quote, "Senior Air Safety Investigator Tim Monville of the NTSB said earlier today they only have limited information so far and do not have a leading possible cause."

This is a tragedy but rushing to judgement is an even bigger tragedy. Why don't we give the accident investigation professionals a few days on site to get an idea of what they think happened before we condemn anyone further in this tragedy. Not to mention beating up each other.
doc9316
I was surprised to see the violence of the stall characteristics of the PC-12. The you-tube clips speak volumes. Certainly not what I experienced when doing my stall trg in
a C172XP, while working toward my solo certificate. For you PC-12 owners/flyers, I couldn't help but wonder about how much an abrupt change in CG could affect the the flight characteristics at manuevering speed, for example if one or more of the kids panicked and got up when hit by turbulence.... Thoughts? And by the way, my prayers go out to the family.
rgbynet
Richard Byrne 1
You know, when I first heard about this crash, "get-home-itist" immediately came to mind. Down here in Miami we have had extremely violent T-storms over the past several days. Of course, we are all speculating but this accident seems like one of poor decision making. Single pilot ops are fine in normal conditions but in a sophisticated, fast moving machine like the PC-12, having that second pilot there to bounce ideas off of and assist in an emergency would not be a bad idea. It's a tragedy!
GarryHill
Garry Hill 1
http://www.thedailyunion.net/newsdetail.asp?article_id=13133

The cause of the crash is unknown at this time. The NTSB and FAA will be conducting investigations. There was debris found two miles away from the crash location and witnesses said the plane was sputtering and flying upside down.

At this point, there are only speculations on what could have happened, but Schoenrock had flown with Bramlage and said he was confident in Ron’s skills as a pilot.

“Ron had gone through simulated (flights) and it was an awesome plane. I had flown in it with Ron and it had all of the safety features you could imagine and then some. A Pilatus is one of the premier safe aircrafts. It should not have crashed.”

According to weather radars, there appeared to be thunderstorms in the area where the plane was flying prior to the crash.

“Ron was a certified instrument pilot and the plane was certified, too. This was a substantial aircraft he was flying and had all the safety features to fly through storms and bad weather. Both the aircraft and the pilot were both safe entities. It was just a tragic accident.”
ysfsim
Ant Miraa 1
why are there so many PC12 cashes and some notable ones too. Wikipedia the pc12 and see for your self. great plane but what is happening?
fwaviator63
A. Highsmith 1
Having been a professional military pilot for 22 years and having over 6k hours, about half of which are IFR, I can tell you that even in the military, our mission did not allow us to be flying in weather beyond the means of either the aircraft or the pilot. A full compliment of equipment in the aircraft cannot overcome the desire of the pilot to fly into conditions that are beyond the capabilities of either the pilot or the aircraft. It is tragic when this happens. I can only imagine what the occupants went through in the last few minutes. I may be wrong but I don't think todays priovate pilots have the weather training to be able to make critical decisions.
lsharpe69
lsharpe69 1
Not to make light of it, but there were 6 fatalities. Some posting here need to Google 'Polk County plane crash'. Your facts are distorted. Unfortunately, the fact is, an entire family perished. Here is exact wording from press article:

"A Kansas businessman, his wife and their four children were killed Thursday when their small plane crashed into a swampy area of central Florida, and word quickly spread to their hometown where the family was known for their charitable work and always having a house full of neighborhood kids.

The single-turboprop, fixed-wing plane was heading home to Junction City from the Bahamas when it broke apart and went down about 12:30 p.m. in the Tiger Creek Preserve, according to the Polk County Sheriff's Office in Florida.

Deputies reached the area by helicopters, but it was clear there were no survivors, the sheriff's office said. The cause of the crash wasn't immediately known, and parts of the plane were found nearly 3 1/2 miles away, investigators said.

Ron Bramlage, a prominent businessman in Junction City who owned Roadside Ventures LLC, was piloting the 2006 Pilatus Pc-12/47. The 45-year-old, his wife, Rebecca, 43, and the couple's children – Brandon, 15; Boston, 13; Beau, 11; and 8-year-old Roxanne – were killed."

As far as the plane "breaking apart"? That was an eye witness account. It could also explain why a plane that appears nearly intact at the crash site has parts 3 1/2 miles away. I'm not the NTSB, but it ain't rocket science here!

Also, Florida is convective soup in the warmer months. If you see it? Best to avoid it with a wide berth. Even as some systems loll, many move quickly. This pilot was mired in 'chunky soup' and that is not where he, his airplane, or his family should have been. God rest their souls.
scottwolfe
Scott Wolfe 1
As competent of a pilot as I am, I am well aware that the lives of those I love, my dog who flies with me always, are far too important to risk just to fly somewhere. I love to fly, but I love to live even more. My friends, family, and my dog depend upon me to make wise decisions when flying... I never want to disappoint them.

Scott Wolfe
San Diego, California
cncryp
cncryp 1
Any thoughts concerning auto managed cabin pressure possible failure?
rgabrelcik
Down here in Florida they reported it was 4 people who were killed. I hope that number stays at 3 and the media is wrong down here. RIP
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
The plane appeared to be in a spiral as it crashed.
jonjeffcoat
jonjeffcoat 1
Check out the pc12 stalls on YouTube. Instant roll. The test pilot has steel juevos
almaa
Alma arseneau 1
Im very sad for the family
rgabrelcik
They are now reporting the plane had 6 people on board, 5 confirmed dead and one missing.
intairrec
When N950KA departed KFPR there were 6 souls on board. 2 adults and 4 children.
RobLAL
Sheriff Grady Judd (Polk County) has said that they are searching for the body of the 13 y/o son which apparently came out midair. The plane apparently broke up in the air and there's a two mile debris field.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/6/7/small_plane_crash_re.html?cmpid=twitter
racinron
racinron 1
How very sad for the victims and their familiy and friends. I pray that they find the body of the boy that is missing.
shredjet
Steven Seshun 1
Did they run into some harsh weather all of a sudden? I know someone else that flew from Treasure Cay to Port St. Lucie today whom I will have to talk to tomorrow.
MANBOI
MANBOI 1
Anybody know the maximum speed for opening the cargo door (Vocd) on a PC-12?
Tourillon
This horrible. And how can a PC-12 (One of my favourite private turboprop plane out there) just break-up mid-air?
pastornelson
Nelson Mesa 1
I am looking into the crash of the PC 12 crash crash that occured in Polk County yesterday. According to reports the plane "fell apart" in flight. It has just departed from an airport on the east coast of Florida and was at altitude when the incident occured, the debri field streches for almost 3 1/2 miles. What type of catastrophic structural failure could cause this to occur? and could there have been any warning signs prior to the incident?
mpradel
Marcus Pradel 1
Duplicate post
Beeskip
Beeskip 1
I know this is a duplicate post, There were kids onboard. Sad story.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/07/us/florida-plane-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
n111ma
n111ma 1
How about a classic stall, spin, crash scenario? Eye witnesses saw the plane in what was described as an unusual..almost aerobatic attitude. Photos do show a mostly intact fuselage. Perhaps a flat spin...where pieces began departing the airframe as it fell. Only a guess! RIP.
ctworley
Tim Worley 1
There is a picture of the crash site on FoxNews.com. It shows both wings still attached to the airplane. What you cannot tell is if the T-tail is still with the wreckage. The fuselage appears to be mostly intact.

The PC12 is equipped with a shaker\pusher system that pushes the nose down after the third shake to prevent a stall. I was told during my PC12 training that a PC12 would rapidly flip over on it's back if it were allowed to stall. If this Pilatus is like the one I fly, one good bounce is all that's needed to make the autopilot disconnect, and he was hand flying at the time.

Mr. Edwards is correct to say the resources (XM weather) should have kept him apprised of the most serious weather. Perhaps he was not experienced enough at negotiating with ATC to request deviations and flew into a severe TRSA. Severe turbulence might have seperated the tail.

Truly sad, indeed.
hansvz
I was crossing SR60 5 miles south about the time of the crash, it was overcast with light rain, not really bad weather. However, they were about 55-60 miles from KFPR and I suppsoe climbing if not at altitude. Obviously, the pilot in command flew straight into a storm cell with severe turbulence. Not at all uncommon over Florida in the summer.
Air Traffic Control doesn't always tell you about these storm cells, as I know a few pilots who have been directed toward them over the central Florida airspace. Anyway you look at it, the PC12 is a very strong plane with a full compliment of cockpit instruments.
Even if air traffic control sends you in the direction of a thunderstrom, you tell them you are diverting, they can't make you fly into a storm cell period.

Usually go down on the deck when coming in from the Bahamas in weather, it is not as turbulent as the altitude this guy was flying in. ATC doesn't like it especially when coming from offshore, but you are well within your rights to do this with notice if it is the safest way to acheive your destination.

CBALLADARES
I am a lowly pilot flying a Piper Arrow III. Hopefully, when I fly to the Bahamas, I don't get vectored into a thunderstorm. The controllers down there are not the friendliest in the country...at all, and I am confident the little Piper will not withstand the abuse. And speaking of abuse, you are right about getting sucked into an debate Steve. Take a look at the call-sign of the previous comment. That call-sign (log-in id)(handle)self-assessment makes a statement in and of itself.
Gator
Robert Hancock 1
hans, from your comments I assume you're a pilot want-a-be. Too bad you are uninformed with regard to ATC operations. Sorry but I couldn't let such mis-informatin go without comment.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
What a sad situation.......you are the Pilot in Command.....don't let a controller vector you into a weather system....just, if anything, get vectors around if needed......pilots that do this and end up with a crash most always take innocent people with them. What is wrong with this picture. There shortest distance between two points is not necessarily a straight line.
I feel so sorry to have heard of this......a totally preventable fatal accident. May they all rest in peace.........
jvintag
jvintag 1
The registration was just updated mid May 2012 and FlightAware does not have any flight tracks for this aircraft older than May 14th. This gentleman may have just moved into this aircraft and that may have contributed in some way. I know from experience that flying with kids can be challanging, especially when things are not going smoothly. Never-the-less, Kansas has lost a Jewel and I feel badly for all.
jvintag
jvintag 1
My Mistake in the previous post, the flight tracks go back to April 6th.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
How in the world did that take place??
grammyfive
Kathy Plante 1
Very sad. I live near the crash sight and the area is thickly wooded. All six family members were killed. They just found one of the children a few hours ago. The others were found in the plane.
grammyfive
Kathy Plante 1
Very sad. I live near the crash sight. It is a very wooded area. They just found one of the children. The rest of the family was still in the plane. The entire family of six all perished together.
MANBOI
MANBOI 1
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/08/article-2156290-13811BA3000005DC-445_634x472.jpg

No post crash fire but the firewall area is singed. The engine and prop are laying forward of the cabin yet there are burn marks up to the windshield.
jbaugh3
john baugh 1
Looks like they spun in. Left flat spin caused by airframe failure, and or pilot action during violent weather.Its a pressurized aircraft and maybe this played a factor with boy getting slung out of an aircraft opening by centrifugal force.
jbaugh3
john baugh 1
Can someone please tell us the design G-limits for the PC-12?
MichaelBare
Michael Bare 1
Their Groundspeed showed 60 knots at FL260.
royjbk142
Steve,
is it likely that he went into a spin and gave the wrong inputs, worsening the situation ?
As you rightly said, a PC-12, is an excellent machine.
Tweeny
My twin sister and I once had a plane crash, single engine. We know how it feels like. RIP lovely family.
johnbaileydarke
This appears to be another, very sad, chapter in the airplane versus thunderstorm saga. In Minnesota we could and would set the airplane down on a recently mowed grain field to wait out a storm. The records will show way too many similar accidents with debris fields extending for miles due to in-air breakups. Light aircraft cannot withstand the full force of the vertical wind shear produced by a thunderstorm. While modern aircraft may have the instrumentation to avoid violent storms, the aircraft themselves are inherently not strong enough to escape the full fury of them and way too often end up as this one did. Prayers for the beautiful Kansas family.
Charleecrat
Tim I tracked this plane for a year due to the Casey Anthony case. She was shuttled in it for many flights. I noticed yesterday that it went from Bahamas to St, Lucie then Ft Pierce 20 minutes away then up again for home. They said on the news Ft Pierce was for customs. Why did he have to go to Pierce for customs when St Lucie was his first stop in the US? Does not seem like a safe practice if customs is suppose to see what you brought back, or do they even check those small private planes>? thanks for your help
ctworley
Tim Worley 2
Flight load limits with flaps up +3.3g -1.32G
Flight load limits with flaps down +2.0g -0.0g

Vmo 236 kts.
ctworley
Tim Worley 2
Hello, Glenda. I can't speak to what you heard on the news. They very often get things wrong. According to the flight tracking, they only landed at St. Lucie, I assume for Customs, then they were filed for a trip home in Kansas.

I'm starting to wonder what factor the weather really played in this tragic event. The weather dispayed on the flight tracking page show only green radar returns. The only moderate to severe weather was well to the west. I'm not saying that they did not encounter turbulence, it just seems odd.

Since some of the comments here refer to Casey Anthony being shuttled in this plane, I would guess Mr. Bramlage could not have owned the plane long, and, didn't have a lot of time in this aircraft. He may have likely upgraded from a Bonanza or Saratoga, which are not approved for flight into known icing. Subsequently, he would not have much experience flying through high altitude weather systems. He may not have flown the airplane into conditions that would exceed the capabilities of the airplane, but rather, flew into conditions where he induced a load factor greater than the plane could stand.

I really don't know, and I'm not trying to appear to be an "expert". Since I fly one too, I would just like to know what happened so I can avoid making my wife a widow.
Charleecrat
thank you so much. I know nothing about planes. All I know is that plane has flown all over the place constantly. I suspected the previous owner leased it out or something since it was always in the air. I noticed it had not been up in a month or so.The previous owner still has it displayed on his website. I heard it was just repossessed.

What sort of maintenance is required when you buy a used plane ? Is it up to the owner to take care of that?

BTW, I got several alerts that this plane did land 1st in st. lucie then ft. pierce. It was down for at least an hour in ft pierce. Im confused
ctworley
Tim Worley 1
Glenda,

The FAA registery indicates last date of certificate action, probably the day Mr. Bramlage assumed ownership, was 05/14/2012. Date of manufacture 2006. Registered to Roadside Ventures LLC.

The FlightAware tracking history goes back as far as April 6th, 2012. Nothing prior to that which tells me it was dormant for more than 4 months. So, perhaps it was repossessed and sat in foreclosure for a while.

The owner is reponsible for all maintenance. If he/she is not the pilot, they may employ a pilot/manager to oversee that all maintenance and inspections are done. In Mr.Bramlage's case, he was the one responsible.

All things considered, it appears this was his first trip after completing his training. Unless, there is more turbine experience we don't know about.
Charleecrat
will this turn out to be John kennedy Jr. redux?
ctworley
Tim Worley 1
Too much plane for the pilot? Possibly.
perz1103
Bill Perez 0
It's the same Airport Fort Pierce Florida/St Lucie County Intl
HA4T
John Kliewer 1
According to cramberry.net 3.3 -1.32G FLAPS DOWN 2.0 -0.0G. Quite irrelevant.
MANBOI
MANBOI 1
Disregard, it appears both doors are with the wreckage. Right wing is missing.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
The PC12 is a fine airplane......but is no match for violent storms..and neither is any other aircraft. Thunderstorms will take out the best of em'
Charleecrat
If you saw the crash site, can you tell if they tried to make a controlled landing? I know nothing about planes but was watching this plane all that day..

As for wind shear, I know this does not apply but I was waiting out a storm at my house one day in 1986. I had a new Taurus sedan. The storm stopped and I walked out immediately to go to work. The back windshield was busted in a thousand pieces and the back panel was dry. Something happened with the wind directly after the rain stopped . Really strange and all I can figue was wind, there was no debris of any kind around.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Probably an overtemp/overtorque situation....those turbines run really hot....and with impact with the ground there was enough residual fuel to burn when the fuel source shut off at impact. Just a theory.
cheneyja
cheneyja 1
Agree on the stall/spin theory. Earlier posted that ground speed shown as 60 knots at FL26. Has the tail been located? Did the plane lose part of the tail, for some reason, at 26,000 feet and flat spin down? Would being a T-tail have a bearing? 13 year old sitting in back gets ejected?
N5240Z
N5240Z 1
Whew! Not me! I bought my raft on eBay... I'll stick to the flight levels even though the water *is* warm.
hansvz
Thanks for your comment., One of my old buddys who grew up in Miami he used to fly the old Pan Am flying boats to South America,(dead recogniing when going into Managua Nicaragua) and was the key note CAA speaker in Montreal when they laid out the airways, later retired from NASA. Best to be in the barn by 11am in the summer in the tropics.
guybac
Guy Bacon 1
Thank you Buz. Please see my comment above and the FedEx cargo pilot hero comment reply to me. His attitude is why many people die in aircraft GA and air carrier accidents. Obviously long aviation life reflects your attitudes. I started in '65. TAC C130 in RVN etc. V Best, g
guybac
Guy Bacon 1
PS: as I recall, back in later 60's/ early '70,, a 130 flew into a cell up in Ohio-Indiana area. They found pieces of it scattered of SIX miles. I believe your SAC reg. speaks columns. Ty, g
conortodd
conortodd 1
Since he was at altitude in a FIKI-certified aircraft, I doubt it. Severe turbulence seems more likely. The post-accident investigation should be able to look at the metal fatigue and data from the (many) systems and see what most probably happened.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Uh....Garry,
What kind of "safety features" did the plane have to fly THROUGH STORMS and BAD WEATHER?? Safety is what safety does. That's my spin.......
N5240Z
N5240Z 1
Charles - your comment made me think back to a truth we should all keep with us! One of the most powerful yet under utilized terms in aviation is "unable". Happy flying
ctworley
Tim Worley 1
Glenda,

In the subsequent photos I've seen of the crash site, it appears there was no forward motion of the aircraft due to there being no dirt disturbed behind the aircraft along the flight path. If the witness reports are accurate, and the airplane was in a spin, it's likely the impact was near vertical with the airplane in a level attitude. The outboard panels, where the aelerons are located, were missing, as well as the horizontal stabilizer, where the elevators are. He had no control of the airplane, and it was a horrible several minutes for them to wait for impact.
johnbaileydarke
There is little evidence to go on except the facts that there were storms in the area, a passenger was ejected in flight, and numerous control surfaces were missing from the wreckage as photographs depict. It is doubtful that there was a "controlled landing".

With regards to your Taurus, the storm most likely caused the glass to break. Could have been a large piece of ice (hail) that smashed it but evaporated by the time you noticed the breakage. Doubtful that wind shear was the cause. Auto glass is designed to breakup into small pieces to prevent injury to passengers.
ctworley
Tim Worley 1
Actually, it's not irrelevant. His track log indicates he made a rapid heading change within a matter a seconda. If he hit turbulence, and the autopilot disengaged as it's designed to do, he could have been either spatially disoriented, or, overcontrolled the aircraft. In a 75 degree level bank, an airplane will experience 4 g's. With the design limit being 3.3 g's, he could have quickly exceeded the limits.
FedExCargoPilot
Dear Guy Bacon,
I recently earned my private certificate at 17. I was trained to handle situations, and yes situational awareness. I trained in a 152, and pretty much the only navigation I had was pilotage and 1 VOR. I feel very offended about your previous comment, and is not getting young people interested in aviation with comments like this. Lets learn from this mistake and not discriminate pilots who are learning at this day and age and I hopefully have goals to continue to Commercial(depending on some circumstances). I worked very hard for this certificate and would appreciate some courtesy.
corso
corso 3
FedEx... I will try not to be presumptuous in passing what I've learned in aviation. A positive Attitude is imperative to have; Acceptance of ones mistakes (we make and will make many). Do not loose your temper in the ground as in the air this will translate to fear, hence panic. Control your misperceived experience, you barely have any and this is a good beginning to be in with this mass of internet information (we had none, but books and flying stories to learn from others, yes I am an old aviator)...

Do not be offended, you are too young, you need to listen, experience and use good judgment and when you do, you will find you are not there yet.

My father told me one thing when he taught me to fly... :If the Hairs in your neck are standing up" LEAVE, do not proceed, TRUST your instincts, not of others. They are telling you of your limitations, stop right now and back off. That is part of Good Airmanship and Good judgement.

Fly Safe, ask questions..
FedExCargoPilot
Even though I'm taking in what people are saying, I think people are getting the wrong impression. I was responding to Bacon's previous comments on a new generation of pilots and I personally feel it was an ignorant comment. I did not have the money to rent a cirrus for an hour. Besides the point, I think this accident doesn't revolve around people with little flight experience. Unless I missed something, it did not say how many hours he had. So as stated elsewhere in the blog, lets wait for the NTSB report and go from there and avoid anything personal. Everyday when I flew, I learned something, and enjoy listening to people's experiences and very open to learning. My opinion is that he should not have flown, but again lets wait for the report.
guybac
Guy Bacon 1
My response was based on two items, both from you. Your log in name indicated you are a Fed Ex pilot-wrong. Second, you BS! Expletive response sounded arrogant( for a FDX pilot), and dismissive of my words. At 17 and with a new private certificate, you might speak little and softly, and Listen much. Based on 47 years (18,000+ hrs), what you didn't absorb was
"for that particular AC, in those weather circumstance, whith no military requirement to be at point X at Y time, DON'T take off. It was pleasure, discretionary hoped for flight. It was bad judgement to go that route at that time. He could have flown west to New Orleans as an alternative. Keep learning
Charleecrat
thanks, that is so scary and sad. I have to take a Xanax to board Delta, glad ive used up most of my FF miles.
Charleecrat
thank you for the reply. That Taurus story has me bafflked to this day. it was raining very hard and stopped abruptly and I was late to work so I went out as soon as it stopped, coulndt have been more than 1 or 2 minutes after the rain passed. Really strange I looked and felt all over the back dash it was dry as a board. I dunno.

I am hearing this flight that crashed might have been the families maiden voyage, anyone else hear that?
av8trmc
john JR 3
interesting to see all the opinions on these posts. Having been fortunate enough to fly high performance fighters for this great country, cessna 172's and a myriad in between I will say there is NO single answer. I really only cared about the weather at my departure and destination when flying fighters....why? Because for the most part any wx in between where I was and where I was going I could get above, around and going below and through weren't even options I had to consider. Now flying GA...whole different ballgame. Obviously a PC-12 is different than a cessna 172, but here's what gets me. Everytime I look at these, the NJ crash over the holidays out of TEB, the kids that just crashed out of Kansas a month or so ago on their way to Iowa, the family lost in TX over the holidays flying out of Louisiana, you look at all these and what do you see...convective wx. They flew right into it...and didn't fly out of it. This doesn't seem to come down to being qualified to fly the airplane, most of these all seem to be qualified to get their steeds in the air and do some of that pilot stuff...this comes down to flight planning and ORM...that other part of flying which in my opinion, w/ good pre-flight habits makes old pilots. Can't say one way or the other on this particular event...but I will say once again WX seems to be close by on this one too. My personal plane flies with XM wx and stormscope. I still stay 25nm away from lighting by rule of thumb and if there's a line of storms...why bother picking your way through, you'll have a hole or the storm will move past by the time you have dinner and take a breather...at least that's been my experience.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Like the saying goes: There are OLD Pilots and there are BOLD Pilots, but there are no Old Bold Pilots........except for maybe just a few who were or are Damn Lucky....and sure was not because of their extreme skills!
1639847
Or, like the other old saying goes: A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgment to avoid those situations requiring his superior skills.
Charleecrat
it was owner by todd maculosco a lawyer from san diego who represented casey anthony and casey flew all over the country on it before the nailed her to florida for one year for probation. she left evil in it
grammyfive
Kathy Plante 0
That was exactly my first thought.
Charleecrat
I want to know what happened as well. I have gotten at least 100 alerts as I watched ot being flwon by the lawyer for Casey Anthony, it appeared to me to also be a rent plane of some sort, it was always in the air. I had no idea it had been repossesed so when I got the alerts I thought Casey might be on her way out of Flordia. i was wrong and she has the most uncanny luck of any aquitted killer I have ever seen.
chiphermes
Chip Hermes 1
That's the plane Casey Anthony flew out of Florida in the middle of the night after being acquitted of murder.
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
Now that is spooky!
HA4T
John Kliewer -2
The family Escalade has wings, a turbine engine, can fly at 26,000 feet and Daddy flies it all by himself. We don't need a professional pilot to take us where we want to go. How cool is that?
klohr
klohr 3
you sir are an ass!
tarbaby
phil gibson 1
That is how most rich guys do it, they take the risk...sadly some end up in the dirt. A real professional pilot would not have made the same unfortunate mistake. it is reall sad.....the whole family.......
eddhendee
Edd C. Hendee 3
Been many professional pilots make stupid fatal mistakes. As a pilot/owner, I resent any rush to judgment to lame a pilot because he owns the plane. Wanna talk about Buffalo a couple years ago? Payne Stewart? How bout Senator in Minnesota? All dead.. All professional pilots.

There is a lesson to be learned from any mishap. Here it is to know the weather better than ATC, and use the word "unable" if the vector isn't safe.

Most. Of all, set it down and sit it out. What's one night in a hotel?
tarbaby
phil gibson 2
Did not mean to lump together Professional Pilot.....I did state "REAL PROFESSIONAL PILOT" .....just a clarification.
HA4T
John Kliewer 1
Yes Edd "been many professional pilots make stupid fatal mistakes", not proportionately to pilot/owners though. "Pilot/owners" have the corner on that. Resent as much as you feel compelled, but keep using your good judgement by "setting it down and sitting it out with one night in a hotel" and you and all your fellow "pilot/owners" should be just fine.
corso
corso 1
Edd. You have a good point. One of the biggest issues with WX and Controller/Pilot is that at times the controller does not receive in plain language what the Pilot needs to avoid weather. The controller tends to think that if you are navigating through or around weather that you have some form of on-board WX equipment. They will give you assistance with their WARP and NEXRAD, but they will leave it up to you to decide when you can proceed unless you state otherwise.
HA4T
John Kliewer 2
Most rich guys I know don't take the risk. They sit in back playing interactive games on their iPads with their kids and grandkids while my colleagues and I do the flying.
Charleecrat
I tracked this plane for a year due to the Casey Anthony case. She was shuttled in it for many flights. I noticed yesterday that it went from Bahamas to St, Lucie then Ft Pierce 20 minutes away then up again for home. They said on the news Ft Pierce was for customs. Why did he have to go to Pierce for customs when St Lucie was his first stop in the US? Does not seem like a safe practice if customs is suppose to see what you brought back, or do they even check those small private planes>? thanks for your help
N5240Z
N5240Z 1
Hi Glenda! That was most likely a news mistake. Ft Pierce airport and St Lucie County airport are the same (FPR). And you are correct, in general, private aircraft must land and clear US customs at the nearest customs equipped airport to their border crossing. Passengers are cleared and the aircraft is usually looked at as well. There is a lot of pressure for pilots to make their customs appointment.
Charleecrat
thank you for the reply but I got seperate emails for the 2 landings, they have 2 different codes and are 2 hours driving time and 20 minutes flying time part. The reason I know this is because we are tracking someone and thought the plane was still owned by Todd. We had no idea he lost it to repossession. We wondered what the point was to land twice look at the map st lucie is small private airport and ft pierce is larger

thanks again
cconfa
Very odd. I live in Brevard County -- a bit north of St Lucie County -- and I promise you that there are no two points in that county that would take two hours to traverse by car. It simply isn't that large.
Charleecrat
LOL that figures I was trying to get a friend to go see if a certain person was on it LOL they said it would take him 2 hours by car. LOL he is busted LOL and im so sorry for that family

If the plane's cabin breached at 26K feet does that mean they may have pershied right then for lack of cabin pressure?
N5240Z
N5240Z 1
No ma'am. At least not necessarily. Useful consciousness at 26,000ft is about 4 minutes. If it were a rapid decompression you would know it and have time to put on your oxygen and descend the airplane. I have rarely flown above 41,000, but even there useful consciousness is enough to allow the pilots to don their masks and descend the plane. In cases like Payne Stewart and the 421 crash in the Gulf recently, many people wonder if it wasn't a slow depressurization and faulty indicators.

Hope that helps!

My apologies if I misread your question about Ft Pierce / St. Lucie. That is where we land to clear customs inbound to the US on a piston prop. We refer to it on the charts as Ft Pierce / St. Lucie County (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KFPR) and assumed in this case it was indeed the same location.
wlyster
Will Lyster 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Pilatus PC-12 Crashes in Florida Swamp

KFPR LAL SZW 3JC
Name Type Latitude Longitude
KFPR Origin Airport 27.4974722 -80.3726389
LAL VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 27.9861111 -82.0138889
SZW VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 30.5561111 -84.3738889
3JC Destination Airport 39.0432756 -96.8432869

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N950KA/history/20120607/1530Z/KFPR/3JC
RobSJC
RobSJC -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Plane down, 6 Perish in Florida

A Kansas businessman, his wife and their four children were killed Thursday when their small plane crashed into a swampy area of central Florida

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/plane-crash-bramlage-family-kansas-florida-swamp_n_1579632.html?1339118454&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D168098