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Squawks & Headlines(Video) BBJ goes around after minimums when runway disappears

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(Video) BBJ goes around after minimums when runway disappears

Submitted
douglesso - "The approach flown was a CAT I ILS. I could see the rain column approach from the other side of the field so I got out my phone camera from the jump seat. You can hear the GPWS announce minimums at 200' AGL, and shortly after all visibility is lost due to rain. You do not hear the "50" foot call out during the touch and go, but it had to be close. The HUD really provides incredible center-line tracking, although you can't see the symbology from the camera angle." (www.youtube.com) More...

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joelwiley
joel wiley 7
That's one that will stay off planecrashes.org
Thanks for the post.
mookie5913
Evan Thrams 6
Sweet video, excellent crew response
isardriver
isardriver 5
awesome - well done
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 5
that's a lot of rain

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

AAaviator
AAaviator 8
always a friggn know-it-all who wasn't there, yet has all the answers - what a douche
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
AAaviator, you might want to review your procedures manual, especially the part about what to do when you lose the runway at or below minimums. I think it says go around, and I can't find douche in the FAR's part 1 so I guess it doesn't apply.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 5
They walked away - couldn't have been all that poorly done.
cparks
cparks 4
You weren't there. The outcome was successful on an unanticipated outcome. Congrats on being a douche.
preacher1
preacher1 4
Actually, I'll jump in and help the boy. That rain was seen a lot further out than minimum. I wasn't there but the video took us all there. I would have called the go around while I had some visibilty, rather than wait to get in it and have no visual reference at all.
preacher1
preacher1 2
There is one other thing though. This was a BBJ, a 135? or private operation. We don't know belonging to who, and we don't know what kind of pressure, if any, that pilot's were under. In most cases, that won't be a factor but you never know.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Once again, a little late for the fisticuffs on this one, but gotta side with dodger4 & Preacher on this one. An EJM captain (just guessin) has more qualifications than , oh lets say 90% of the commentators on this forum, and is also flying a state of the art airplane, with state of the art radar. This includes lightening, turbulence and rain. If he had seen the first two on the radar he probably would not have initiated the approach. He would also not be convicted of being the first to try to beat the weather to the airport. In defense of Dodger4, once you lose sight of the runway, at or near minimums, it is go around time, per the regs. and per do I want to go to my daughters birthday party. He knew what the miss was gonna be, he just didn't wanna do it.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Preacher.................
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
After reading everything, that's what I would've done too. As far as the "pressure" in your comment below, I don't give in to that, the passengers could go to hell. I have to get home alive, 2 hungry dogs and a son that flies my savings away...
Sometimes you gotta look at the big picture and not go to the MAP!!!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Right or wrong - I still stick with - they walked away. Both skill and luck always come into play. Maybe this time there was more luck than skill. Don't know - wasn't there. (Even had I been I wouldn't have known.) But I imagine there are a lot of folks who like the outcome.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Donna, they walked away applies to more than one moron who lived to crash another day! I did not attach that to this crew. I have no desire to fly with a guy who would rather be lucky than good. Procedures are just that, and training is to reinforce procedures. Can't see the runway at minimums, go around, no questions, no debate. Thats the rule. Have I ever landed an airplane after shooting an approach to below mins. Yes. Do I do it on a regular basis. No. The sim is one thing, real airplanes are another. When approach is calling the RVR 6000' and nobody at CVG is missing, I won't either. And so it goes.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, you basically were there if you watched the video. He did eventually make it down and came thru the whole deal OK. He went around anyway. All anyone is saying here is that you could see that cloud coming before it ever enveloped the whole field and that he should have initiated the go round quicker while he still had some kind of visual reference and was a tad ahead of that rainstorm. Yeah, he made it thru OK but put himself, the crew, and all pax on that plane thru some unnecessary stuff.IMHO
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I disagree with none of that.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Upon reflection, I see what you're saying. I, too, would rather not be a pax on his plane. But like I said - the outcome was a good one.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
In defense of your position, spotting a quarter on the side of the road would be good, until you get hit by a car when you reach down to pick it up. Nuff said.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
That's a good way of putting it...
preacher1
preacher1 1
I can agree with you on the pressure as that's the way I feel to. I been on the ground at DFW here for most of an hour. pax loading now and back to FSM. We took off in rain this morning but I just went West and turned left; came in on the tail end of it down here. no biggie.gotta go.ttyl
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
could have easily been one of those situations where they were just trying to beat the storm....long day....alternate being over 50-100 miles away and the passengers really needed to get to their meeting....their return from the storm on their storm scope showing a cell that was moving slow and was huge which would have meant about 30 mins in a holding pattern .......many variables

[This poster has been suspended.]

AWAAlum
AWAAlum 3
Some people should heed their own advice, don't you think?
gdpballin
gdpballin 1
Beat me to it ;0

[This poster has been suspended.]

AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
btweston
btweston 2
Thanks, random guy on the internet.

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Maybe not, Dodgers just and ATP.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
shoulda rechecked before post 'and' should read 'an'
My bad

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 1
At this point, wouldn't that be 'former' airman in the....?
I didn't see that on the FA dropdown list tho'
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Did you know that your opinion may differ from someone else's, and that you can still state your point of view without being rude or talking down to others? Give 'er a go sometime, you'll be amazed at how accepting people can be when you treat them with respect.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
So that's where I know you from Phil... I was on the program in the 80's.

[This poster has been suspended.]

AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
It's you who isn't getting it Mr. Rudd. You don't appear to understand how to follow a thread. My response sits directly below Mr. Wiley's, which sits directly below yours, indicating we are both referencing yours. I'm going out on a limb here and saying I can't imagine ever agreeing with you.
flyboy97222
Jason Rhew 3
Thats like a normal landing in South Florida in the sumer :O
Alex66Alex
Alex Alex 1
Excelent video... excelent decition and reaction of the crew. They understand the equation of "go arround = save lives". Thanks!!
AirCadet161
Don Mills 1
Now THAT was scary. However, it proves that the good ones know what they are doing.
VANHO
EVAN HODGDEN 1
Not perfect, by the book, but totally the right decision. Had it been other than a non-convective rainshower, I'd be looking for any evidence of LLWS, initiating a missed well earlier.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
O.K. For all the been there done thats, runway disappears at between 32 & 33 seconds on the video, and go around is called at 38. I call that reaction time, and tempered with a little reality of surprise. You could probably do better the 2nd or 3rd time in the sim. Just sayin.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Uh, I find it interesting that this post (8 hours old at this time) has -9 score when it is a duplicate of :
http://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/7_days/new/34770/BBJ_goes_around_after_minimums
posted 72 hours ago with a +81 score. Perhaps downgraded for being duplicate, weekend effect or just internet fickleness?

Go figure.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 1
I wonder how similar the view was to Delta 191.
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Good call Joel, and I think you hit it with the two words just before go figure.
Cheers
skylab72
skylab72 1
D191 was not a Vis issue it was a microBurst, big difference...
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
That would explain preacher's slam on the Medevac C130 out of MAFB in 68
preacher1
preacher1 1
I don't believe 191 ever lost the runway
bentwing60
bentwing60 1
Having been around this forum for a while, the transition from mostly GA pilot, mech. guys and gals to the air carrier, non pilot wheelhouse has not gone unnoticed. Gotta go with the flow. And I still think they send the food editor out to cover the "breaking news" at the airport. As for Preacher, I think he calls em like he sees em, and he am what he am. PC ain't his cup of tea. And calling a BBJ a business jet is kinda like calling a Ferrari a sedan.
Cheers.
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 1
How big of a problem is heavy rain for the engines? How bad does it have to be for a flame-out to occur? I assume the water is vaporized in the compressor, but as some point the A/F mixture is going to get pretty messed up.
747Thunder
747Thunder 3
They will in jest massive amounts of rain without fail.
RECOR10
RECOR10 8
In jest? Certainly you kid. While I mean no ill gesture, your jest causes me indigestion
747Thunder
747Thunder 0
What's the matter? Can't anything in jest?
elblanco
elblanco 0
The word is ingest, as in to consume. In jest is two words, with jest meaning as a joke or funny. Unfortunately this happens alot on the internet, twitter is lousy with it. The one that irks me the most is when people say "for all intensive perposes." or when the split one word into more for no real reason, like in jest.
StymieHo
Chris Donawho 3
Thanks for the lesson. Now one for you: ALOT is not a word.
elblanco
elblanco -6
It is impossible to measure how much I don't care about a lot, no one does, except the super nitpicky people that want to feel superior.
StymieHo
Chris Donawho 0
It's grammar, whether or not you care for it. So how did it make you feel when you nitpicked Mr. Thunder's comment? Did it make you feel superior?

If you want to grade everyone's comments, be prepared to assess your own writing.
elblanco
elblanco -4
I felt like I was correcting someone who mispelled a word and changed it's meaning entirely. I taught him a word he didn't know, you are scolding someone for not hitting the space bar on a word that anyone would still understand.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
And "it's" should have be "its" - it's is ONLY a contraction for it is and not a possessive. But at the end of the day who really cares. This isn't an English class, and if people understand what you meant to say, what does it really matter? This is so sophomoric not to mention off topic.
747Thunder
747Thunder 1
elblanco is nothing more than a jester. Funny how when he typed alot it was because he forget the space bar. Yet anyone else that left out a space didn't know the word.
elblanco
elblanco -7
Dude, before I commented you didn't even know what a jester was. if you really need to insult someone for writing alot, well then go for it, it's the only way you'll be able to feel superior to someone who can actually write.
747Thunder
747Thunder 1
He's done it again. alot is not a word. Before us you did not realize alot is not a word.
elblanco
elblanco -7
Thunder, the grownups are speaking, go and play outside for a while. Before you go though, of course I know alot is not a word, I too had english in school. I don't care that alot isn't a word, we're on the internet, not writing books. If it's something serious, I'll write a lot. Why are you even argueing this? I corrected you on a word, I was informing you of the actual word, stop being a jerk.
747Thunder
747Thunder 0
Oh okay junior. You keep pointing out others mistakes and ignore your own. Remember it's just the internet!
elblanco
elblanco -6
I'm not ignoring my own, I'm calling you and Chris out on being nitpicky jerks. I own up to my mistakes, alot IS a mistake,I know that, I just don't care. What I find interesting is that you jumped on the bandwagon of insulting me, while ignoring your own mistake at the same time.
joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Carrying this thread too far is, in itself, a mistake. JMHO
StymieHo
Chris Donawho 2
All further comments will be taken in jest....
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
No, I am Not jesting, and don't call me Shirley!
StymieHo
Chris Donawho 2
Roger Over... Under Done.
RECOR10
RECOR10 1
Leave it to the internet to take a small joke - jab WAY over the top....But, do you like Gladiator movies?
organfreak
Scott Hawthorn 2
My bowser won't move any further to the right.
Bobqat
Bob Harrington 1
Perhaps you could drive your bowser around to the left...? ;^}
RECOR10
RECOR10 1
RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT!!!!! Do we have clearance Clarance?
willrs
Will Smith 0
It seems to me, that someone may be intoxicated by the exuberance of their own verbosity.
747Thunder
747Thunder 1
Ok no problem. Whatever you say. I don't have time for this. So best of luck to you, go ask your mom to make you a peanut butter and jelly or something.
flyingcookmosnter
flyingcookmosnter 2
Here's Rolls-Royce testing Water Ingestion. Short of flying with the engine under water, heavy rainfall shouldn't cause a flame-out as the water mostly goes through the bypass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faDWFwDy8-U
flyingcookmosnter
flyingcookmosnter 1
Here'sa good video from the 777 GE testing with water, ice, bird, and triple redline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xlObdXF8VE
StymieHo
Chris Donawho 2
TACA airlines pilots dead-sticked a 737 on a levy in New Orleans because rain flamed out both engines. The water testing is done at cruise power. When descending, the auto-throttles will retard and leave you with low engine speed. Combine that with a onslaught of water and you can very well "flood" the engine. The bypass is not enough.

Ultimately, it pays to fly around torrential heavy rains.
genethemarine
Gene spanos 1
Just think if this was on final while over Park Ridge and MSHS at less than 2,000 Feet AGL with a group six --747-800-F ???
Great job FAA with this plan for 9C [ TBA ] .

[This poster has been suspended.]

joelwiley
joel wiley 3
Plan B:
What goes around, comes to ground.
bdarnell
Brad Darnell 1
Couldn't have said it better

[This poster has been suspended.]

AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Way to go Phil. I do believe Brad's post is responding to Joel's.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Most people aren't seeing that Phil. They continued when they had a visual on the weather.
Your point is exactly what I was thinking, where do you go on the missed??? Right into what you're going missed for. I second that they didn't have a plan B!!!
nickpiszczek
nicholas piszczek 1
total nonsense.
patt46
paul patten 1
Gee, I didn't read anything about a thunderstorm. Typical heavy rainshower for Central and
South America and the Caribbean. They did what most professional pilots would do.
smoki
smoki -2
As soon as the runway disappeared there should have been a go around initiated without delay instead the descent continued but it was a Business Jet as opposed to a heavy from which I draw experience. Rain shaft downpours like the one experienced are known to contain windshear microbursts (a column of rapidly descending air) which can cause unexpected settling not to mention the intense rain itself suddenly impacting the airfoil leading edge. Though it was a judgement call, personally I would not have continued the approach. I can only assume there was no convective activity in the area associated with this rain squall, that it was just rain, otherwise not good judgement to continue and chance it. Onboard radar and pireps presumably confirmed that.
mwilliams78
mwilliams78 3
Remember that we are viewing this on our computers from a small handheld camera in the jumpseat at least 2 feet behind the pilots point of view. My bet is their visibility was at least a little better even when the plane hit that wall of rain.

There is always going to be someone on the internet that will second guess every video and say they would've or could've done it better.
smoki
smoki 1
Gee, what a profound revelation, that not everyone is a cheerleader of a crew's performance in a free discussion forum. Betting that their visibility was at least a little better when the plane hit that wall of rain as a defense because that "small handheld camera" viewing from a jumpseat with its images viewed on our computers probably exaggerates and lies, ok, fine, but that too is a judgement call which was my point. Would've or could've done it differently does not necessarily equate to better, just different.
HRSINCLAIR
Horace Sinclair -8
Airbus A350 Takes Off In Maiden Test Flight
The aircraft maker's new plane is a direct challenge to the composite construction 787 Dreamliner of arch rival Boeing.


http://news.sky.com/story/1103576/airbus-a350-takes-off-in-maiden-test-flight
emmanuelaponte
emmanuelaponte 4
Talk about off topic..
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Pilot aborts landing after runway 'disappears'

A incredibly heavy rainfall burst forces the pilot of this passenger jet plane to abandon the landing at the very last second when he completely loses visibility. Thankfully the pilot was skilled enough to pull up safely and circle around until the storm cleared enough for him to land safely.

http://screen.yahoo.com/pilot-aborts-landing-runway-disappears-170546932.html