• Join FlightAware (Why Join?)
  • Login
  • US Flag 
06:10AM EDT


 

Airport Tracker/Info


-or-


 

Squawks & HeadlinesCo-Pilot Killed, two injured in Challenger Crash at Aspen Airport

Back to Squawk list

Co-Pilot Killed, two injured in Challenger Crash at Aspen Airport

Submitted
A co-pilot was killed and two other people were injured after a private plane crashed as it tried to land at the Aspen airport in Colorado on Sunday afternoon, officials said. (www.thedenverchannel.com) More...

Sort type: [Top] [Newest]


jetselect
Carroll Lewis 13
The right seater was actually the chief pilot but new to the Challenger. So was the pilot in the back..
The PIC supposedly was a high time Challenger Contract Captain.
It takes only a few months to learn how to fly.
It takes another 20 years to fully learn when not to fly
thomasq
Tom Zaidman 4
Your comment on 20 yrs to learn when NOT to fly is absolutely on the ball. Good for all pilots and specially for private flights pressured by either owners or company.
ethrane
john frenzel 11
Was in Snowmass about 5 miles down the road from ASE. Last night we had 6 inches of snow and most departures were cancelled. Today the weather was pretty poor with gusting winds, intermittent snow showers and blowing snow. ASE is not the most straight-forward approach. Sounds like between the approach and the conditions this crew was over their heads. Abort to eagle is never a bad choice.
jshhmr
josh homer 4
Exactly. Used to work for Aspen Mountain Air. They flew D-328's from DEN and would divert to Rifle all the time. Anything below a quarter mile visibility was diverted.
Steve1822
Steve1822 14
I must agree with those posting, this Aspen accident, has nothing to do ethnic background. The common factor is that the crew were employed as Pro-Pilots. What is not common on a international basis are standards of training and the screening process of insuring an individual has the higher level of knowledge, skills and ability to become an type rated ATP. After that comes experience, good judgement and common sense. No amount of training and money on earth can buy the latter three.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well said Steve
RECOR10
RECOR10 6
Seems that it was all over the place over Aspen - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N115WF
mjsracing1
Steve Shaw 2
Thanks for the FlightAware link. Daniel, what do you suppose the course deviation was halfway into the flight? I wasn't aware they did this enroute. I fly a CJ3 into KASE regularly and watch the tailwinds closely. Too high for my aircraft and I divert...period.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 3
I've speculated it was a hold for delay as they were showing some pretty good ground speeds en route. They had two more circuits upon arrival.
pbarre
pbarre 1
Looks like ASE was getting busy. 115WF held one turn over DVC and one turn over Red Table before the first approach attempt.
AABABY
Also a little 360 back South a ways. Plus the multiple go arounds. Some sort of problem on board? Sad to know of the fatality, I hope the others will recover.
BenKFIT
Ben Lillie 3
It sounds like they were going missed because of wind shear. The pilot reported an airspeed gain of 30 kts.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 11
I actually live in Jersey, I bet I know more about Jersey crashes...
caktusjack
Greg Landes 4
And that helps us how? Enlighten us of your vast understanding!
WithnailANDi
WithnailANDi 1
This comment sounds like the choice on the personality test that gets your paper stamped "Does Not Play Well With Others".
Pileits
Pileits -1
kev, you da man!
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Looking at ground speeds in the upper 400 MPH, I'm wondering if that was a delay circuit as were the two circuits before the first approach. The en route circuit was at Dove Creek which is under ZDV along with Pitkin. So, they'd know better what to plan for with arriving traffic and conditions.
citation750xl
citation750xl 5
Wasn't there a gulfstream crash in aspen a few years ago where the findings indicated that the crew was under immense pressure not to divert. It seemed it happened in the early evening.
JimHeslop
Jim Heslop 2
Yes, I just finished reading the NTSB report of that crash. So many lives lost with so many single chances to say "missed approach" and go to the alternate. Here is the link. Very interesting read :(

www.ntsb.gov/doclib/.../AAB0203.pdf
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 3
I'm pretty sure I would not be liked nor ever hired again by that customer. But I'd be alive!
preacher1
preacher1 1
We were fortunate enough that I never got subjected to that. Although we were set as a 135 for various reasons, it was basically a straight 91, and it was not uncommon for the old man to be on the jump, BUT, he never questioned a move. I have hear that true 135 drivers catch total hell from customers at times and probably don't get much help from mgt.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 5
It has been my experience flying 135/91k that when it comes to Aspen, Telluride, and other hard to get to airports that can be extremely tricky - that management will back you up in every single instance when you decide not to go there... they may ask you to hold a little while and see if the weather improves - but they never once forced us to go there. That is a good thing because Aspen can and will kill you. It is the only airport I can think of at the moment where the Missed Approach Point is at the Final Approach Fix. If you can't see the airport by the FAF - you go missed... because as you get closer and lower it becomes harder and harder to execute a missed approach and not hit terrain. Any many times the controllers will "invent" the weather you "need" to get in there. I have personally seen this while number one for departure - all of the wind socks are pointing down the runway for departure and the tower says the winds are down the runway for landing... but they add "low level wind shear is in effect" or something like that. They almost have to do that otherwise people would never be able to either get in or out... that is why it gets so damn dicey at that airport. I loved going there at first, but as the years went on - I learned to hate that destination. Sure, it was fun and challenging - and beautiful I might add - but embedded in that beauty is a bit of danger.

I have diverted to Rifle, Eagle, heck, one time we tried both of those only to be surprised by un-forcasted weather and we had to go to Grand Junction. Almost always the PAX understood this is a possibility - if they went to Aspen regularly they are aware of the weather concerns. But every once in a while we would fly someone who would throw a hissy fit for 2 hours before agreeing to get into a luxury sprinter van for the 90 minute trek to Aspen from Eagle... he went bonkers saying that the weather was horrific for driving - as if flying was such a better choice?? "you can always pull over if things get bad" I told him, and the idiot said he would rather die trying to fly in there - so I handed him the keys (for the baggage door, but it was used as dramatic effect) - and I told him if he wants to kill himself he can fly there himself. LOL.

I called the company to tell them about how bent out of shape this guy was, swearing at everyone, and being reman to everyone around I am - they of course knew this about the guy - he was always like that. When I told them that I told him to fly himself - they laughed - these explosive personalities are not usually one time occurrences - and the company was genuinely good to us about that sort of thing.
Steve1822
Steve1822 8
Josiah Waters (sort of) sums it up. An experienced, conscientious, well trained pilot that is familiar with Aspen approach and terrain would have no problem. Although the cloud coverage and visibility was good by Aspen standards, the winds were not. Most jet aircraft are certified in the (stricter) transport category of FAR's. As such they have certain operating limitations for extra safety. One of these limitations is the maximum 10 knot landing tailwind. The tower reported wind to the pilots at the time of landing as 330 degrees at 16 knots with a prior one minute wind speed average of 320 degrees at 14 knots with gusts to 25. The landing runway at Aspen was RWY 15. On the first attempt the pilot reported a 30 knot tailwind when he elected to go around and try again. Based on ground speed data on final approach and a estimated Vref + extra airspeed for the reported wind conditions combined with a reported tailwind component at touchdown presents a challenging scenario. Very unfortunate situation.
gayinspandex
Richard Ashley 4
As a professional pilot and as an individual I have flown into Aspen Pitkin County a number of times and it is one of the 10 most challenging airports in the world.
You are surrounded in all quadrants by steep and high terrain and your aircraft must be able to perform and climb at a specified rate to get out of the valley.

Most part 135 and 121 operators require special training to fly into the airport and most 121 operators severely limit their operations and the capacity of their airplanes so they can operate at max performance on climb out. Because of density altitude in hot months this is especially significant.

I flew under parts 135 and 137 operating air tankers (P3 Orions and P2V Neptune's ) out of there and there is no other way to put it........SCARY and dangerous.

As far as the deceased pilot, I feel for the family, I know nothing about his training but a very high percentage of foreign based pilots are trained in the US because the standards, quality and training are significantly higher and the cost significantly lower.
I am betting he was US trained and held a US AATP certificate.
soarby007
brent young 4
Most jets are limited to a 10 kt tailwind and these guys are landing with 20kt, with wind shear? I've been into Aspen quite a bit and its difficult landing on runway 33, but even worse landing with a significant tailwind plus shear? I'm wondering if the FAA will be looking at all the guys landing prior to this with winds exceeding aircraft limitations. Just wondering. You can never second guess one of these deals, but wind looks to be a definite issue.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Actually, I think the story has them telling ATC "three three knot tailwind". That's 33kts. Definitely stout.
ricardorickey
Stout is right! I think they might have had a little get there-itis...Got determined, a little too nose down. With the wind on the tail and thin air it took
too long to start flying again...Sad situation.
bizjets101
biz jets 1
That was on the missed approach - we have no idea what hit the aircraft while it was landing, only that both flight officers were Captains - the deceased was a retired Mexicana Line Captain (age 54).
preacher1
preacher1 1
I haven't been in there in a long time and only a couple of times in my life, but whether there or anywhere else, there have been multiple contacts about getting behind and panicing. If you get into any kind of shear at the last minute, you will probably panic too. RIP
bizjets101
biz jets 2
With CVR and two surviving pilots - eventually we'll have the entire story - kind of amazing the coverage this accident has had, guess due to crashing in front of the flightline on a busy day at Aspen - tweeted by 3 celebrities!!
preacher1
preacher1 3
Must have been, plus as far as here on FA, so many pro's as well as so many having been in there, most being glad it wasn't them.
LarryQB
LarryQB 3
Can you say "10 knot tailwind maximum. We're going to Rifle"?
In our 135 operation we require either specific simulator training for Aspen, or an entry with an experienced Captain.
Az3201
Gary Butt 3
This is weird, it doesn't like the pilots made any attempt at landing to me, everything about it is wrong, orientation, speed, line up, attitude, at the very least you would have expected a go around, looking forward the the NTSB report.
pbarre
pbarre 3
Looks like the thrust reversers were deployed?
LarryFJr
Lawrence Fick 3
Just a word of condolences to the families of those who perished in this incident.
From South Bend, IN ~~ Non-pilot.
pbarre
pbarre 2
If they were deployed it tells me they were on the ground, with no intention of another go around. Downwind landings...yet another reason we use RIL.
kea001
Tom Kearney 4
Conditions are terrible VIDEO
http://youtu.be/y48egyybKEQ
cdierking44
Chris Dierking 4
Looks like they shot at least 1 missed approach.
kea001
Tom Kearney 1
Three people on board. One dead. One major to severe injuries. One with minor to moderate injuries.
kea001
Tom Kearney 1
Atc recording below shows only one 'cleared to land' and one approach before crash.
bizjets101
biz jets 1
Co-pilot deceased, Captain in critical condition, 3rd pilot (aircraft was equipped with a jump seat) serious injuries. Aircraft was a fireball coming down the runway, but fire didn't seem to enter the interior - none of the injuries were of thermal in nature.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 -2
No one else seemed to be having trouble, they were just in over their heads.
TXCAVU
Exactly and you could hear the guy on the radio hesitating and "tight". You could hear the fear in his missed approach calls. A 30 knot tail would scare me too yet he just could recover his thoughts and calm down.
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 7
I have flown into Aspen many times in various weather conditions. The conditions reported at the time were not exactly perfect, but were far from the poorer conditions that US trained pilots deal with routinely on that approach. I personally have had to deal with worse conditions than the ones reported at least once or twice a year when flying the Learjet 35 into and out of Aspen, along with Telluride and others. For those pilots who read or comment on this article, they will likely agree that the Lear 35 is one of the trickier aircraft to fly in gusting conditions, and our approach speed is relatively high for our aircraft size and gross weight, given the wing design (and planform). All things considered, while utmost care must be used, its not difficult or dangerous unless one pushes the limits of the approach by attempting to continue on the approach passed the Missed Approach Point or MDA as published in poor visibility. The visibility was actually great (for Aspen) and the ceiling was respectably high, so weather was really not a factor here.

Looking at flight aware data I was surpised how poorly the initial missed approach was executed. Additionally, it has all the markings (both the first and second approach) of a crew that were behind the aircraft, and struggling with the approach.

I am not passing judgement here, but I have flown with many aircrews over my career and Mexican nationals have BY FAR been the most incompetent, and poorly trained. I have also personally witnessed a Mexico City based pilot fail his initial type rating 3 times, even though the oral and practical exams were no different than the ones US and European trained pilots were having no difficulty with. I would really like to see what these 3 mexican pilots training logs included, and how well they performed at Flight Safety (a place that corporate pilots train and maintain currency) as well as how much time the Captain had in make and model. My gut tells me, there was pilot incompetency here.
preacher1
preacher1 5
Well he was not the only one to miss, but apparently the only one around that particular time that actually attempted to land. This link below gives some interesting detail at the bottom of the page and is worth reading. Somewhere in here already I thought I had seen this as his third approach.
btweston
btweston 3
Actually, you are passing judgement... That's what passing judgement means.
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 2
Sharing opinion from experience is not passing judgement, good sir. Hence, starting my sentence with "Not passing judgement" implies: "Let me share with you my opinion based on my experience without you taking it as being judgmental." Obviously you did just the opposite.
mantoine
mantoine 2
I did a flight check with a Mexican National and he was one of the sharpest pilots I've ever flown with.

"...Mexican nationals have BY FAR been the most incompetent, and poorly trained..." looks like passing judgement. Same can be said for American, Canadian, Korean, Chinese, Indian, etc...
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 4
If the First Officer's radio etiquette was any index into his airman skills, the evidence speaks louder than your hypothesizing. Some of the worst ATC transmissions I have heard in a while. Also, sadly they crashed. The crash was entirely unnecessary, as another simple missed approach/diversion would have sufficed. My point still stands. Look at the statistics on my point: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/10/nation/la-na-nn-faa-pilot-training-foreign-airlines-20130710

Just one example of many articles I could post comparing US and European Pilot training vs other countries. Lets not argue with evidence :)
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -4
Oh, I could give you dozens of examples of braindead US and European pilots doing some very stupid things, like flying into the only 4,000 foot hill in an entire Caribbean island because they're too damn lazy to check the charts before heading off for an island-hopping trip. And lets not even talk about the 250-hour-wonders some airlines were putting into the right seat of regional birds back in the late 90's when the pickings were slim. Lets not argue with evidence, indeed.
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 3
Once again I am not talking about individuals, or races here, Juan. I am talking about training standards. Are you saying you have evidence that I am incorrect in making these well documented assertions? Please share.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 2
How can going around after a missed approach because of a 33 knot tailwind be an example of good training?

The frequency was full of shear reports.

Off to Grand Junction would have been an example of good training.
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -2
Didn't you say it yourself that they were trained at FlightSafety? Keep digging that hole, soon you'll be ordering Chinese food.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
That information has not been released. I believe he was referencing that as a common 142 school where many biz jet pilots receive their type rating.
siriusloon
siriusloon 1
"I am not passing judgement here..." Of course you are, that's exactly what you're doing. And so is your gut. Your only basis for declaring "pilot incompetency" is their nationality. Sweeping generalizations are *always* suspect. :-)

So you "personally witnessed" one incompetent Mexican pilot and of course that means they're ALL incompetent. Just like one blowhard racist American pilot must mean they're all like that, too, huh? Of course not -- in both cases.
treehouse4rent
Carlos Bea -3
Some of your statements are idiotic. You were not here. I was and still am. I flew a Hawker in here 3 days ago. Weather was not a factor? My God!!!!! Tailwind gusts over 30 knots with wind shear over 20 & a ceiling that precluded a circle to 15? I flew a Hawker in here 3 days ago. The weather yesterday was hazardous.
Btw, I've also landed Learjets on runway 33 here. Have you? It's not a cakewalk.....weather permitting.
I spoke with several long time line guys this morning who witnessed the crash and the arrivals of the aircraft preceding it. They had never seen such treacherous & dicey arrivals or wind conditions before. Ever!
No pilot, regardless of their experience level, was safe attempting such a landing except perhaps you. Ridiculous!
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 2
I never said I was there. However, you almost make it sound like the crash was the only possible/inevitable outcome. I stand by what I said, and I don't believe an experienced crew would have had the same outcome. Your statement in the last sentence is also refuted by evidence in the fact that the Lear 45 successfully landed under what was nearly the same conditions roughly 10 minutes before the first attempt by the 115WF crew.

I stand by my statements and am quite confident that the NTSB report will point out one important issue: I do not believe the crew was flying a stabilized approach, nor do I think the crew had the experience or confidence necessary to make the appropriate calls leading to the failed outcome.

Keep in mind, I agree that the conditions were not a cakewalk, nor did I say such in my post. Care to share which statements were idiotic?
treehouse4rent
Carlos Bea -2
Are you even a real pilot or one of those virtual pilots? Your smug rationale and disrespect for fellow aviators & overwhelming immaturity on this forum is eye opening.

Btw, I'm rated in A Lear 45 as well.

Idiotic statements:
1- weather was not a factor
2- ceiling was adequate
3-incompetence lead to crash. No, how about stupidity.

Most idiotic statement yet: A more experienced crew would have precluded such an accident.

Do yourself a favor and review the NTSB database of Learjet accidents the past 30 years. Many pilots, some with over 8,000 hours in Learjets alone, are deceased. But, according to you, that can't happen.

Professionalism is about decision making. What the arriving crews did was not professional. Period.

I predict one day, with your attitude, you'll quite possibly join that unenviable group.

Good luck!
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 4
I'm just a measly instructor with 3,000 hours who hasn't flown anything larger than a 206 and I drew many of the same conclusions.

The majority of accidents happen because a pilot does something stupid. Pushing beyond the airman's skills in a given set of conditions is indeed a stupid move. The first approach going missed was a test. That should have made them much more aware in the second approach not to mention reports of wind shear and question whether it was viable or pick an alternate. If you're not stable at least thirty seconds and preferably a minute out, it's time to take your toy and go play elsewhere. They continued and they paid for it.

It doesn't take a 20,000 hour pilot flying heavy turbines to learn how to make good decisions. I'm confident the final report will indicate this pilot pushed it into a situation for which they lacked skill and experience.
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 5
Your ad hominem response is a little surprising given that I didn't attack your credentials, nor did I (or would I) make predictions about your aviation career ending in ignominy.

You said that I stated: "A more experienced crew would have precluded such an accident." I never said that. I said: " I don't believe an experienced crew would have had the same outcome." Very different.

You said that I SAID the following idiotic statements (I answer in parentheses)

"1- weather was not a factor" (that is not exactly as I stated it but if poor wind conditions CAUSE one to make poor decisions that lead them to the outcome experienced by N115WF maybe they should surrender their certs before such a pilot jeopardizes anyone's lives.)

"2- ceiling was adequate" (how is this idiotic? Read your approach plates and tell me what you find out. Oh yes, well above minimums, and you say you just flew in there? The ceiling WAS adequate.)

"3-incompetence lead to crash. No, how about stupidity." (I didn't use the word stupidity because, unlike your statement "Your smug rationale and disrespect for fellow aviators..." I DO respect my fellow aviators and don't label a lack of experience as stupidity)

I am sorry that I stepped on your toes by sharing my post about training/proficiency. My intent was to shine the light on an issue of training and competency that I feel is lacking in certain countries, and I am disappointed at the misuse of my words to trigger racist remarks from some, and ire from other individuals like such as yourself. I do respect my fellow aviators, including you, and wish you all the best in your career.
BaronG58
BaronG58 0
Carlos...rated in Lear 45..great accomplishment..but ratings and hours logged do not always equate to proficiency.Sometimes equates= "Lucky" Weather was factor. Wind...crosswind...head wind.. tail wind..is weather!Ceiling not factor ok...INCOMPETENCE (lack of proper training was factor) I only have 4800 + hrs...still learning. Have numerous take-off and approaches in my G-58 at this stopping spot....also have fractional share in P/J that goes to airports as this under simular conditions....Deal breaker!!...if they try to get me there on time or get me out on time.
preacher1
preacher1 3
Carlos: I detect a little bit of that racist name calling and liberal attitude that surfaced earlier and didn't fly real well in this column either. Tis good that you are qualified and all as you are but to blindly question the qualifications (not actions) of specific others here is not good, as you have put yourself on a pedestal and being very judgmental, But then as an ATP, and qualified in a 707, 757, 767, a host of CRJ's and light twins, pushing 20,000, I may not be qualified to judge either, BUT, in my opinion, based on that experience, I have to agree with the other comments made here.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 0
a lot can happen in 10 minutes....by the time you factor in them going missed, holding and re-approaching the weather has probably had about 30-40 mins to change.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 3
By the timeline on the ATC audio, it was only about thirteen minutes between the missed and when you hear the landing clearance. The clearance for fire/rescue to proceed was a few minutes after that.

The missed and vectors back around for another approach was pretty quick. It probably seemed like an hour to them.
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -5
Given conditions and all the reported missed and canx approaches as well as diversions, my gut feeling is that youre doing some ignorant, racist knee jerking. As if there were no incompetent US pilots who have failed the initial type ratings more than once...
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 5
How is it racist to criticize training? Its not directed at a race, but rather training received in other countries. I get so sick of everything turned into racial issues. It has nothing to do with hispanic pilots trained here in the US. That is why I said Mexican National and also used an example of a pilot FROM MEXICO CITY - trained there. I actually felt bad that the training he received there did not prepare him for his ATP initial/Type Rating, and was most likely responsible for his failure, NOT his race by birth.
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -5
"...and Mexican nationals have BY FAR been the most incompetent, and poorly trained." Rare example of a case in which your own words make it easy for me point out that your words are all the evidence I need to tag your comment as blatantly racist.
BaronG58
BaronG58 4
Juan...yes you are correct there are poorly trained pilots in this country and others. As pilots we are all products of the aviation environment we have grown up in.Will never forget what the designated examiner told me when he was signing my private ticket back in 1978..."Son this is a license to learn...always fly as a student and you will live to have gray hair" Fact is there are bad teachers..instructors and training in all fields. Proficiency training in aircraft is not just mastering the aircraft but also includes decision making. Having said this I have to agree with Josiah. Very good friend of mine is a instructor for FlightSafety Intl at KDFW. He trains crews from all over the world and shares with me horror stories about pilot skills from all countries. Mexican Nationals take 1st place in the re-ride category. This has nothing to do with skin color and all about pass-fail percentages. Why this is...I do not know...but it is what it is. Percentages don't lie. By the way....my friend is African-American. Does this make him a racist?
preacher1
preacher1 4
I'll throw my 2cts worth in and you'll probably slam me for it too, but I don't think he was being racist. You may have taken it that way but he could have said it a lot plainer if he was being racist rather than describe a group of people for comparison. Sad that you are that narrow minded and/or blinded by your skin color that you think everybody is picking on you. That will cause you to miss a lot in life
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -5
Bull. Bad training happens everywhere, including the US. Trying to make it seem that that is the norm in Mexico is both racist and ignorant. Whatever problem you have with that fact is an issue between you and your therapist.
chalet
chalet 3
It is a fact that the U.S. enjoys the best, and by far, aviaton safety record in the world and that has to do with the best flight training schools (save a few ripe apples), the best maintenance around (again save a few inevitable poorly run shops) and the best traffic control hands down. Western Europe, Singapore and Japan come in as a close second. Eastern Europe and Latin America come in third place. The rest of Asia and Africa (my God!) are way down. Sorry if I rubbed some of you the wrong way but facts are facts.
siriusloon
siriusloon 1
Let's not forget it was U.S. schools that trained several pilots how to fly who later flew into three buildings one otherwise fine September morn. Of course, you won't indict all schools in the U.S. because of them, but many here are quick to slam entire countries based on "personally witnessing" one bad pilot.

What about the the white, U.S.-trained, American pilots who crashed the Dash 8 in Buffalo because they thought to avoid a stall, you pull the nose up? Are you going to say all "non-ethnic" American pilots are incompetent because of them? Or would you have had to "personally witnessed" them in order to rationalize some way of not making a sweeping generalization based on them? Gee, too bad they weren't Mexican to prove your point.
chalet
chalet 1
First of all you are being extremely stupid for bringing into this blog the murderers of Sept. 11 which yes, were taught to fly in a free world by extremely competent instructors. Now if you know at least a little bit about statistics you have to put everything under the context like how many hours are flown in the US every year flying so many million passenger-miles aboard hundreds of thousands of aircraft of so many types versus the number of accidents (fatal or otherwise) and then do the same excersice using the figures of your own country´s flying system and then you will see that quite possibly the U.S. system is at least ten or perhaps twenty times safer tan yours. OK?.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
It's not about the color or the origin of the party, it's the culture.

A huge number of blacks die in the inner-city violence of Chicago. It's not because they are black but because of the violent culture surrounding them. At worst, it's embraced by many and at best it's tolerated because many think nothing can be done about it. The latter is quite true in that situation and it's also true for pilot training.

I saw Indian students who were the elite of their country have an attitude they deserved higher respect when they knew nothing compared to the instructor. I don't know the case with Mexican students but perhaps there's an issue with substandard training. That can happen anywhere and does. It's the culture within those schools.

Now, was it wrong to bring up the Chicago example? Only if I did not use it in the correct context. You did exactly that with the reference to 9/11.

Those instructors taught students in good faith. I had a couple students who were from Iran. While I might not like what's happening in Iran nor agree with Muslim religion, I treated those students like the men they were and respected them as students. I didn't go suspecting their motives nor did the instructors who worked with those who became the hijackers. In fact, it was an instructor who picked up on certain issues with a student and brought them to the attention of authorities.

One could also say there was a limited culture in some regional airlines that allowed far too much leniency in qualifications and standards for pilots. Renfro's record was a prime example of that.

So, it's not the color or the origin. It's the culture. If they just happen to be Mexican, Indian or Korean... so be it.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Opinions may be right, they may be wrong. But we're still entitled to them. Just like you are.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 5
I won't say it's the norm in Mexico but I would say it's more than possible to be the norm for a particular school in Mexico. We have those in the US as well. I worked for one... for a very short time.

One would think I'm racist for this but actually, I'm not a racist. I'm a bigot. I'm in tolerant of stupidity. And there is nothing more stupid than running a flight school where the students get away with dictating how their training happens. It was a case of the inmates literally running the asylum. And in this case the "inmates" were Indian students. It seemed like I was the first instructor (a rookie, no less) to stand up to them and say, "My instructor ticket, my decision."

There is a rather successful school here in Texas that took on students from a bankrupt school. Initially they had similar issues then at one point they chose to set the rules and the students' choice was either to abide by them or a phone call was made to DHS to terminate their visa.

Yes, there are bad schools everywhere but there's more than enough proof to go around that some cultures make it difficult to give and receive competent training.

Either way, if you listened to the tone of that pilot of N115WF, it was one that exhibited hesitation and lack of confidence. I didn't even hear that from the pilot who was alerted a chock was stuck in their tire and gear door. The accident pilot by all accounts appeared unprepared for that environment and that difficult of approach into a difficult airport.

We'll know more certain facts down the road but this is not an unreasonable statement.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it and sure as hell don't need to waste money on a therapist. This is one of those things on which we must agree to disagree as neither mind is going to change.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 0
kumbaya my Lord....kumbaya.....kumbaya my Lord......kumbya....oh Lord... Kumbaya......lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
Smart Aleck. LOL
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Takes one to, oh well, this topic has gotten to hot to comment on.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
Good grief.

Ongoing poor training and skills racism does not make.
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -5
Yes it does when you generalize from a point of sheer ignorance.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 6
Man.

This country has become wussyfied.

Dude missed approached,then crashed.

That is not racism. That is pilot error.
preacher1
preacher1 8
And I would like to see his training records too. I don't care what nationality he was.LOL
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 3
Next thing we'll hear is that was Bush's fault.
blake1023
blake1023 2
I thought it was Global Warming!
KennyFlys
Ken Lane -1
Here's your global warming. Al Roker said he took this picture inbound to Chicago.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdZEVZUIIAEJ0pz.jpg:large
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Hard to imagine Roker sitting that far behind the wing.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
It's all about adding more energy to the systems. Conditions become more extreme. More chances to brush up on Wx skills. Maybe better to get used to it.
preacher1
preacher1 0
bigfrog
Jimmy Anthony 0
Didn't bush change training standards in Mexico in his 2nd term? Guns for lower training standards?
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 0
Bush, Cheney, Tea Party, Obama, NSA, CIA, FBI and A-Z
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 2
LOL!

I am the CEO of TeaBag Air.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I could have gotten a job flying for a company with nothing more than my commercial ticket, only a thousand hours flying Skyhawks and not even an ME. The pay and benefits were incredible with the job guaranteed as long as I wanted it.

I believe the company was called, "Left Air".
flybd5
Juan Jimenez -5
I believe that was the company that did the evac of Myth Romney from Boston on election night. They had trouble loading his ass on the 152 because they couldn't get him to pull his tail from between his legs. LOL!
jimp9106
Surprise Surprise ! , The Race card guy is a Liberal ! I'm shocked !
preacher1
preacher1 0
me too, plumb shocked
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 3
Well, the "Myth Romney" certainly reveals your position.
preacher1
preacher1 1
BTW, Tim, I am directing this front that is carrying this below 0 air over to your part of NC. AR has had enough.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
They've already put the schools on a two hr. delay
preacher1
preacher1 1
It don't appear to have the cold rain ahead of it for you like we had here but I can guarantee you it's colder than what this country boy likes. I been here too long to move but we gave serious thought to going on South but there were some things that had to be handled here on account of it. Be sure and leave you some water running and get your cars out of the wind if you can
preacher1
preacher1 1
And I would definitely TAKE them boys to school rather than have them have to wait on a bus. This thing is frostbite city. Them folks up North can have it.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
NTSB Preliminary Report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140106X95024&key=1

"According to preliminary information from the Federal Aviation Administration, the flight was in radio contact with ASE air traffic control (ATC). At 1210, N115WF utilized the localizer DME-E approach into KASE. ASE ATC reported winds as 290º at 19 knots, with winds gusting to 25 knots to the crew before landing. The crew executed a missed approach, and then requested to be vectored for a second attempt. On the second landing attempt N115WF briefly touched down on the runway, then bounced into the air and descended rapidly impacting with the ground at midfield. No further communications were received by ASE ATC from the accident airplane."

I'm suspecting the tailwind gust might have been greater at the point on approach causing loss of airspeed and it sunk too fast to recover.
glen3rd
Glen Stewart 2
I was there. Landed in EGE due to tailwinds and drove to ASE. Looked like he stalled and a gust help flip it upside down. They had passengers waiting inside.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
The status of the two survivors has been asked before. I emailed the reporter of a recent article on their status and received the following:

.... I've reported that Miguel Henriquez was upgraded from critical to fair on Friday and that Moises Carranza was released from the hospital in good condition a week earlier. No details on the nature of their injuries, other than that they were not fire-related.

All My Best,
Andrew
--
Andrew Travers
Reporter
Aspen Daily News
970.925.2220 x228

Thanks Andrew
TXCAVU
They were in trouble and flustered. You can hear it in his voice.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 2
Archived ATC recording

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kase/KASE-Jan-05-2014-1900Z.mp3

Begin listening around 20 minutes in as "Whiskey Foxtrot" receives landing clearance.
airwolfe
Ron Facklam 2
From what I understand, they tried to land once before and had to make a missed approach due to winds. Then they tried again, which they never should had tried the first time, they should have gone to rifle as an alternant for those conditions, they had a 30kt tail wind for landing, that aircraft is limited to a 10kt tail wind. As a professional crew, they should have known that.
The tower might have said something to the crew, but it is the Captains final decision of the operation of that aircraft. ~~ ATP Professional Pilot
preacher1
preacher1 2
Not having been up there in years, I got's a stupid question. If the wind was at 330 and had been there awhile, why in the Sam Hill didn't they change runways or at least offer him the other end. I figure there has got to be a reason but if the wind had been fairly steady out of that direction, I fail to see what that reason is. Can one of you Aspen regulars enlighten me????
pilotman893
Thats never a good thing. When in doubt go around and divert!
TXCAVU
Amen. With 3 pilots onboard...why not extend and divert to Eagle or Denver. Or were they bent on spending time in Aspen?
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
bizjets101
biz jets 1
Pressure - they were picking up passengers in Aspen.
preacher1
preacher1 1
One behind them diverted to Rifle and a SkyWest diverted on to Denver on account of fuel due to an arrival hold.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 3
I noticed the tone as well. It didn't seem very confident.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
Reading that may have just turned me into a white knuckle flyer. Makes it sound like flying / landing is really a roll of the dice.
trwilson
Todd Wilson 2
Hard to say with his accent, but likely the guy on the radios was pilot monitoring and not PF.
TXCAVU
Bet you are right. Especially considering the conditions and the missed approach would have almost guaranteed the Captain did the flying. Sad though to think the voice we hear on ATC is that of the deceased.
bizjets101
biz jets 0
Due to weather, most likely Captain was flying, the person you hear on ATC recording, most likely the deceased.
siriusloon
siriusloon 1
"...most likely Captain was flying..."

And you base this statement on what? Were you there? It couldn't have been, for example, an experienced pilot doing a type conversion and learning to fly a tough approach accomapnied by an instructor?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 2
He's guessing - just like you are. Just like everyone here is. It's a discussion about possibilities
AABABY
That's good news.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I've had the same question. According to the METAR prior to the accident time the lowest levels were FEW035 and BKN046.

I'd think that would be plenty in order to circle even a business jet.
btweston
btweston 1
I believe there is a rather large mountain at the south end which precludes northerly landings.
pilotman893
Very Interesting!
AABABY
Some new facts finally. Any word on survivor's accounts of incident?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
Nothing. I can't get anything out of a Denver TV station, either. Once the sensationalism passes, they don't care any more.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, I could see where that could be a problem. LOL
superspeck
Karl Katzke 0
mdlacey
Matt Lacey 0
Nice find. I wonder if they were trying to get in to meet a buyer.
superspeck
Karl Katzke -1
It's a one way in one way out airport. Look at the charts. Do you see a Rwy 33 approach procedure? What about a Rwy 15 departure procedure? Look at the airport diagram. Do you see approach lighting on Rwy 33? Look at the satellite view. Do you see approach lighting or markings there? Nope. Can't approach Rwy 33 due to terrain.
OnTheHorizon
Tony Smith 6
Per http://www.aspenairport.com/operating-procedures/high-altitude-safety : (about 1/3 of way down page)

It is sloping uphill about 2% to the southeast so most pilots choose to land on 15, which is the upslope runway. If the winds are brisk from the Northwest, you can always request a landing on 33.

So it is occasionally done, and a 33 knot tailwind would seem to qualify as one of those RWY 33 situations. That being said, if you are not familiar with ASE attempting a tight in approach to RWY 33 is probably not a good idea and you ahould go to your alternate.
superspeck
Karl Katzke 1
Thanks, Tony, I didn't catch that -- but I was only looking at the flightaware airport information page!
OnTheHorizon
Tony Smith 1
No problem, I was looking at some of the Jeppesen approach plates for ASE at http://airnav.com/airport/KASE and they oftentimes have additional airport links at the bottom of the airport webpage.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Just a lot easier to ask the question rather than dig all that out. Apparently I was the only one wondering per Ken's comment too. Tks
superspeck
Karl Katzke 1
Yup, sorry about the tone. I'd just answered someone way, way down the page who had claimed to actually have flown a Rwy 33 approach. ;)
preacher1
preacher1 1
I saw that earlier and just went and looked at your reply. It probably could be done but you talk about seat of the pants flying and a seat pucker. A WW2dive bomber wouldn't have anything up on a guy(or gal) trying that. There would really be no approach. A good tight base turn, stick it and hope it stayed.
cdierking44
Chris Dierking 2
Someone who was there said it was N115WF, a 1994 Challenger 600-2B, coming from Tucson.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 2
Anyone saying a well trained pilot would have had no issues making it into Aspen under those conditons is not a well trained pilot. With the tailwind + Vref I'm calculating it would have required just in excess of 2200 ft/min descent rate to lose the 4,000 ft. from DOYPE to the threshold. Can you arrest that descent rate in the landing flare? Perhaps. And perhaps the airplane will enter an accelerated stall and pound the landing gear up into the airplane. Now go look at the pictures.

Two times in 2013 I diverted to Rifle because they were calling in excess of 10 knot tailwind component as we got there. Both times I could see the runway just fine from DBL. Both times I caught hell. Time to go have a sit down with the boss... get me a pay raise.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Check out back in the late 90's the Mexican Learjet that crashed in IAD. Qualifications, pairings, training records, and wx. conditions!!!
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 4
The black boxes were sent to the United States for analysis. Information gathered from 38 minutes of cabin conversations, along with video footage from a security camera on top of the Omega Office Building, provided evidence for an official statement by the Mexican Government that the crash was the result of pilot error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mexico_City_plane_crash
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
That link's not for the IAD crash.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Point is money could buy you anything. It doesn't matter if you trained at Flight Safety, you could still be an inept pilot.
I had an instructor at FS, old guy that said he started flying Lears in the 60's and had a ton of time in them. He talked big which got me curious and asked him how much time he had in them, he slowly responded about 3000 hours. This clown was criticizing some of my flying, which did not have any bearing on anything in the PTS. I was the "humble" guy with 3 times the time in the airplane that he had...
lj35capt
Josiah Waters 0
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-12-04/news/fl-ntsb-learjet-report-20131203_1_the-learjet-35-two-pilots-fort-lauderdale-hollywood-international-airport

"Yet, even though the pilot of the ill-fated flight requested a 180-degree turn back to the runway, the plane instead made a slow turn to the north, paralleled the shoreline, quickly descended and flew "away from Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport," according to a preliminary National Transportation Safety Board report released Tuesday.

That indicates that both pilots were either too overwhelmed or distracted by the power loss – or some other cockpit crisis – to navigate back to the airport, Cohn said. The Lear crashed in the ocean about four miles northeast of Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International shortly before 8 p.m. on Nov. 19.

"I think what happened was someone forgot to fly the airplane," said Cohn, of Plantation, a former cargo and airline pilot. "Normally, one guy flies the plane while the other one handles the problem."

Earlier that day, the Mexican registered Learjet had made an ambulance flight for AirEvac International, delivering a medical patient from San Jose, Costa Rica, to Fort Lauderdale. It was preparing to make a 90-minute flight back to its base in Cozumel, Mexico, when the accident occurred.

The pilots were identified as Jose Hiram Galvan de la O, the captain, and Josue Buendia Moreno, the copilot. The passengers were Fernando Senties Nieto, a doctor, and Mariana Gonzalez Isunza, a nurse. All four were Mexican citizens.

The bodies of Galvan de la O and Senties Nieto have yet to be found, the U.S. Coast Guard said Tuesday.

Brian Rayner, an NTSB accident investigator, said the ultimate culprit behind the crash remains unknown and that all angles will be scrutinized, from the plane's maintenance history to the pilots' experience levels."
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 2
oh boy.

You have really gone over the top racist now!
BaronG58
BaronG58 2
Yeah your right Keith! Josiah has gone over the top! Posting a factual article from the sun sentinel.....they must be racist too!
siriusloon
siriusloon 1
OMG! Another Mexican crash. Of course that proves you're right. Why not post two Mexican crash reports and be twice as right? Post three. Post four.

Then post a few hundred American crash reports where none of the passengers had Hispanic names. What does that prove? Nothing. Same as your irrelevant report.
pilotman893
Yep, that is confirmed.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Bosses not too understanding sometimes. You supposed to be better than everybody else and land the dang thing. It was clear. Hell just drop it on in there.LOL
bigfrog
Jimmy Anthony 1
Didn't they find that the Learjet was also racist, which assisted in the crash
preacher1
preacher1 0
What about that one that went down in Mexico with that Tex-Mex singing girl, Jenny something or other?, on it. Wasn't pilot qualification called into question on that one.
lj35capt
Josiah Waters -1
Brian, a bit bold to morph what I said into the type of response posted in your first sentence. That's not at all what I said. I simply shared from my experience, and yes ultimately the crew WAS inexperienced enough to attempt that landing if indeed the winds put them outside their aircraft performance index...something that a trained, seasoned crew would have evaluated (not being behind the aircraft they would be making decisions appropriate to the circumstances). Brian, not sure why you are talking about arresting decent rate and accelerated stalls with reference to the tailwind. If this is what happened, as you hypothesized that would be driving home my point about being behind the aircraft and poor piloting/execution. An ATP rated pilot should NOT be struggling with these elementary issues related to speed and decent planning regardless of how much the tailwind increases the groundspeed. As I used to teach my students many years ago as an instructor: "No matter what, fly the aircraft."
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 4
Based on experience with a student once when returning to Austin, I'm thinking dealing with tailwind landings should be part of the required curriculum.

They had switched flow from northerly to southerly with three knots out of the north... on the ground. TRACON gave us the option of landing with a tailwind if we wanted rather than go around and extend to the north a good distance.

I figure that three knots on the ground was more like ten or twelve knots aloft at 1500 AGL. I had the plane and my student was watching. We were in a slip and slow as slime. At one point I could feel the nose drop but it was quite subtle. I said to my student, "Feel that?". I dropped the nose slightly and continued on. We landed still in the first third and turned off soon after.

It was a good lesson in what can happen when you push the airplane still well within its limits but far outside your own. After that I looked for such options with other students when possible.

There will be some out there who will say I was "hot dogging" with a student. I would counter with the number of instructors out there who short their students on the knowledge and teaching maneuvering flight.
bcanderson
Brian Anderson 2
"not sure why you are talking about arresting decent rate and accelerated stalls with reference to the tailwind". Uh-Oh. Ever hear the term wing-loading? The result of an abrupt nose up pitch change to arrest that excessive descent rate will increase wing loading, which in turn raises the stall speed. Does it raise stall speed above 1.3 Vso (Vref)? Well, who knows since aren't we are rather deep into test pilot territory here flying at nearly three times the published tail wind limit on an approach segment which already has nearly double the normal descent angle? But a look at the landing gear in those pictures provides a clue.

Seems to me these are situations a "well trained crew" (regardless of nationality) doesn't "deal with routinely" but rather, avoids altogether.
myronswanson
myron swanson 2
you cant "F" around at that airport. They probably have minimal experience.
siriusloon
siriusloon 2
"They probably have minimal experience."

Well, then. That solves another one. Who needs the NTSB with so many experts available who work for free and have the answer so soon after the wreckage stops sliding.
wingbolt
Todd Wilson 2
And for some reason the FAA thinks sleep apnea is a priority.
pilotman893
See, as a 20 year old going into aviation as a career, sleep apnea is not the problem with incidents. Accidents are going to happen. Yes some of them are avoidable. If the FAA thinks that testing pilots over sleep apnea is going to fix the problem. I don't think so.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
20 years old, hopefully you're coming in as an aviation lawyer, you'll be loaded by 30!!!
And you'll have a shiny new Cirrus...
Not like me and Preacherman, counting pennies...
preacher1
preacher1 1
Ain't that the truth, and 12 degrees with 0 wind chill is too cold for this here country boy. Call this heah cold weather up yore way where it's supposed to be. I'm burnin' way too much butane.
preacher1
preacher1 1
On the serious side, 33 knots blowin' down the back end would have sent me elsewhere, I think.
TXCAVU
More likely the five P's.
Musketeer1
Musketeer1 1
They've already dropped what you are talking about.
wingbolt
Todd Wilson 5
Some people miss the point. Kind of like the FAA.
wingbolt
Todd Wilson 2
I didn't know pilsner came in 5 packs...only 6 packs or more.
MarianInReno
Ms McCutcheon 1
Talk about pilot error, don't you mean the 5 T's?????
TXCAVU
What are the 5 T's?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
Under Single-Pilot Resource Management:
The Plan
The Plane
The Pilot
The Passengers
The Programming
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
Time
Turn
Twist
Tune
Talk
TXCAVU
Like this 5 T's.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
Tango,tumba, two-step,twist, and twerk
TXCAVU
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
They got behind while other pilots handled it.
Perhaps they will checking out the plane for a prospective buyer in Mexico and were unfamiliar with the terrain and unskilled with wind shear.
caktusjack
Greg Landes 1
They were there Dec 23
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
That's 6 Pees
caktusjack
Greg Landes 1
In eagle co
chalet
chalet 0
Lizz why did you prejudge what happened.
preacher1
preacher1 3
I don't think she prejudged. She simply offered a plausible opinion like everybody else on here. 33 kt tailwind and panic in the voice off the ATC recording is a safe bet something went wrong.
chalet
chalet 2
Nobody checks out a plane for a prospective buyer in Mexico or Timbuktu in awful weather conditions on top of being "unfamiliar with the terrain and unskilled with wind shear".
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
More than once, in this case
MarianInReno
Ms McCutcheon 1
I apologize if I have offended anyone, but I understand, the way aircraft are built today, if there is an accident, it is usually pilot error.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
No such thing as mechanical failure, huh?
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
LIVE coverage via Twitter from Nico Salvatore Enea at Aspen airport who witnessed the crash as he waited to take off in his private Jet. According to his tweets it was a challenger jet from Dallas that crashed on Landing (unconfirmed).

https://twitter.com/NicoSEnea
rfandler
ron fandler 1
With that much tailwind, why didn't they circle and land on runway 33?
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
UPDATE from "The Denver Channel" (ABC affiliate)

ASPEN, Colo. - The Pitkin County Sheriff's Office confirms emergency crews are responding to an accident at the Aspen Airport.

The plane appears to be a Bombardier Challenger 600 that was coming from Tucson to Aspen, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

Comedian Kevin Nealon tweeted: "Horrible plane crash here at Aspen airport. Exploded into flames as it was landing. I think it was a private jet."

"Fire truck and ambulances were on the scene within minutes," Nealon tweeted. "I don't believe there are any survivors."

"Airport is closed now. I think I'll drive back to LA after seeing that," Nealon posted.

"So sad! Horrible plane crash we just saw happen at the Aspen airport," LeAnn Rimes Cibrian tweeted.
TXCAVU
Bombardier Challenger 600
AABABY
So! Anybody in Aspen with information on the condition of the survivors?
Any further factual information on the incident itself?
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 1
I listened to the whole tape. Something that sure caught my attention was at about 27 minutes. A jet had a chock wedged between a tire and gear door.

I couldn't quite figure out which tail number was involved. A search wasn't showing on the outbound list.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
LISTEN LIVE: Pitkin County Public Safety - includes Aspen Police, Fire and EMS

Pitkin County Public Safety Live Audio Feed http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/50/web
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
Reverse thrusters deployed and reports of 33 knot tailwind gusts and shear.

Could he have landed, deployed rear thrust and then take on a tailwind that put him airborne again with rear thrust screaming?
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
The tape reveals a wheel chock stuck between the wheel and gear door on a departing aircraft.
treehouse4rent
Carlos Bea 1
For anyone who "thinks" that the weather conditions were not a factor, go to Youtube, type: Private jet crash video & see the deplorable weather conditions for yourself.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
lol

[transferred]
AABABY
Well it's been a few days now. Is there any new information about the crash? Any word from the survivors? Any new video from the many people at the airport? Any updates from FAA?
Maybe those at FlightAware could start a new Discussion ?
Not being a pilot myself, I wonder about how these thing can happen. But I don't really think the quarreling that is going on is helpful.
This particular "Squawk" is beginning to resemble a Saturday night meltdown from the days of C.B. Radio.
I do post flippant remarks on things that are mundane, like Delta's latest cabin renovations. I try to avoid Making any pronouncements on pilot proficiency because I am NOT qualified to do so.
Any time I have posted a question on this, or any previous incident, someone has given a straight answer and I appreciate that. There are several members who are very experienced in aviation and usually have the best input. Thanks for that.
So, that being said, how about some new facts please?
treehouse4rent
Carlos Bea 1
Professionalism is about sound decision making. There was nothing "professional" about the various flight crews who arrived here during such horrendous conditions. Period!
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Bad timing, bad luck factors?
Orville1000
Orville1000 1
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kase/KASE-Jan-05-2014-1900Z.mp3 Link via poster comment on thedenverchannel.com story.

KASE Tower: "November one-one-five-whiskey-foxtrot, wind three-three-zero at one-six, runway one-five, cleared to land. One minute average, three-two-zero at one-five [etc]."

115WF accepted, plane wobbled before touchdown, wing tip hit and dug in, plane flipped and caught fire.

Is it unreasonable to presume KASE was using Rwy15, the absolute worst choice, to avoid jets flying overhead, irking Aspen's moneybags?

I can't think of any other airport that would land and takeoff planes in 16-35kt gust tailwind. Waste of life and of a great airplane.
TXCAVU
He got approved to shut down & pull it out though...why it got there is interesting.
kea001
Tom Kearney 2
21:55 Background can hear them yelling go around.
kea001
Tom Kearney 2
When I say 'them' I mean tower.
KennyFlys
Ken Lane 2
That's what I was thinking. There's a ramp guy or someone being chewed on this afternoon.

Imagine had he raised gear in flight and the result. I certainly would not have turned back to Pitkin. That 15,000 feet at DIA would be looking really sweet.
TXCAVU
Oh yeah! You could hear the controllers' angst as he listed to the other pilot report the chock. You could almost hear him think "Are you kidding me?"
kea001
Tom Kearney 0
22:03 I think is the pilot yelling.."No, forget it" or "Don't. Forget it."
preacher1
preacher1 1
I heard that earlier. I haven't figured out how that happened yet but there has got to be a ramp rat around there somewhere that ain't having a real good day.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
It was pilot error over weather.

The plane had no passengers, so the boss wasn't yelling at them to land and there have been reports that the title was bring transferred.

So the flight operation could have just been a delivery.

Grand Junction would have been just fine.

That's what Prince Bandar would do.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Or, could he have about been there and the wind got under him and he yanked the thrusters to get down.?? I'm just asking; it's been done before when things got ugly.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
This is about 20 hours old at the moment
Miguel Henriqez was in critical condition and Moises Carranza was in serious condition at St. Mary's Hospital in Grand Junction,

source: http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/238822281.html
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 3
Yep.

The report came after the crash. One crash may have prevented another problem.
AABABY
Thanks, Joel.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
woops.

Title to the aircraft [being] trandfered.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
I don't know. But I think the question will be when, where and how were the reverse thrusters deployed?
biscayne738
Dave Birkley 1
GIV N528AP...
Champdriver
jim gevay 4
Guys, the correct term is thrust reversers or TR's, NOT reverse thrusters.
Try and keep the wild speculation to a minimum, let the news media do that.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
Asking a question and using the term "I don't know" hardly a wild speculation make.

capice?
Champdriver
jim gevay 2
Re-read some of your own earlier posts, sounds like speculation to me.
For the record, you're not the only one that comment was directed at.
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss -1
Questions poised on the internet.

The horror!
preacher1
preacher1 -1
'scuse the hell out of me
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 0
What did they call them back in your days?
trwilson
Todd Wilson 0
An arresting wire and hook!
biscayne738
Dave Birkley 1
Meant GV not GIV...
Cabaniss
Keith Cabaniss 1
Either way, their bacon may well have been saved.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
Looks like Death was going for a 2 for 1
preacher1
preacher1 1
That 33kt tailwind should have sent folks elsewhere. On a 121 Operation, yes, the Captain is pretty much in charge and is supposed to be on a 135 or 91, but on those 2, there is that guy known at the boss that sits in the back and has the run of the plane. Now, if he is the right kind, and knows you well enough to respect your word as truthful on something, he will not bitch if you tell him we are going to Rifle, Denver, or wherever; at least not bitch about your decision to go there. He may bitch about having to divert but not about your judgment to do so. Unfortunately, there are some out there that aren't the right kind.
soarby007
brent young 1
They usually land on 15 and takeoff on 33, but I have circled to 33 for landing, not an easy task. I listened to the ATC tape and sounds like increasing shear with each aircraft landing. He did say on his missed approach on his first attempt that he had a 30 it shear increasing. Hindsight is perfect but runway 33 or another airport would have been better choice.
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 1
UPDATE from Aviation Safety.net
1 fatality and 2 injured

Tail No. N115WF - Challenger 601

Status: Preliminary
Date: Sunday 5 January 2014
Time: ca 12:22
Type: Canadair CL-600-2B16 Challenger 601-3R
Operator: private
Registration: N115WF
C/n / msn: 5153
First flight: 1994
Engines: 2 General Electric CF34-3A1
Crew: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Passengers: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Total: Fatalities: 1 / Occupants: 3
Airplane damage: Substantial
Airplane fate: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Aspen-Pitkin County Airport, CO (ASE) (United States of America) show on map
Phase: Landing (LDG)
Nature: Unknown
Departure airport: Tucson International Airport, AZ (TUS/KTUS), United States of America
Destination airport: Aspen Airport, CO (ASE/KASE), United States of America
Narrative:
A Canadair Challenger 601 corporate jet, registered N115WF, sustained substantial damage in a landing accident at Aspen-Pitkin County Airport, CO (ASE). The airplane came to rest upside down on runway 15. A fire erupted. Three people were on board the airplane, the Pitkin County Sheriff's Office said. One person died in the crash, one person has major to severe injuries and one person has minor to moderate injuries.
Challenger N115WF arrived at Tucson International Airport, AZ (TUS) about 08:47 MST following a flight from Toluca (TLC), Mexico. The airplane then departed at 10:04 MST, bound for Aspen, CO.
Audio from the Aspen Tower frequency shows N115WF being cleared to land about 12:20: "November one one five Wiskey Foxtrot wind three three zero at one six, runway one five cleared to land. One minute average three two zero, one four, gust two five." This clearance was confirmed by N115WF: "Roger one one five Wiskey Foxtrot."

The last automated weather report before the accident read:
KASE 051853Z 31009G28KT 270V360 9SM HZ FEW035 BKN046 OVC050 M11/M20 A3007 RMK AO2 PK WND 33028/1851 SLP243 T11111200 $
18:53 UTC (11:53 LT): Wind 310 degrees at 9 knots, gusting to 28 knots; wind variable between 270 and 360 degrees; Visibility: 9 miles in haze; few clouds at 3500 feet AGL, broken clouds at 4600 feet AGL, overcast cloud deck at 5000 feet AGL; Temperature: -11°C, Dew point -20°C; pressure 30.07 inches Hg.
coloradoredlands
I note that I tracked that jet today on Mode-S en route to KASE. I also heard "MEDEVAC 3817" dispatched from St Mary's Hospital in Grand Junction CO to pick up survivors.
superspeck
Karl Katzke 1
Brent, did you look at the charts for KASE before you suggested a Rwy 33 landing? And how have you actually done that? I don't mean to call into question your experience, but looking at the charts it seems that there is a hill just south of Rwy 33 that blocks the approach. There are no published approach procedures for Rwy 33, nor are there departure procedures for Rwy 15. There are only Rwy 15 approaches and Rwy 33 departures.

That means that Aspen is a one-way-in, one-way-out airport. If you look at the satellite view, you can even see that there aren't any approach equipment (lighting) installations, including PAPI at that end of the runway.

The only thing that a pilot can do if the winds out of the north are too high to make a safe landing at Aspen is to call a missed approach and go around again, or divert to another nearby airport. Due to terrain, there is simply no way to land into the wind if the wind is out of the north. Well, you might pull it off in a STOL aircraft like an Otter, if it's even legal to do so. I don't think you'd do it in a Challenger.
superspeck
Karl Katzke 2
I'd edit if I could, but as Tony corrected me above, landing on Rwy 33 is possible, but only by special request. There aren't any published approaches for it and there's no landing aids.
kwu20001
kev wu 0
CORRECTION: 1 killed, 2 injured in fiery Aspen plane crash
At least one person died when a small plane crashed while trying to land at the Aspen, Colorado, airport Sunday, said Alex Burchetta with the Pitkin County Sheriff's Office.
Two other people were transported to the hospital with "moderate to severe injuries," he said.
FAA spokesman Allen Kenitzer said the twin-engine jet was a Bombardier Challenger 600 that was coming from Tucson, Arizona.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/us/colorado-plane-crash/
http://www.9news.com/news/article/371875/339/Plane-crash-in-Aspen
TXCAVU
Someone had to have gotten it on film.
preacher1
preacher1 0
With an airport closure until 6pm, I bet it'll be the bum's rush out of there this evening.LOL
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
quit a few folks are/have been bused to KDEN.
jamescagney2000
jamescagney2000 -2
could it be that it stalled, pilot tried to correct and clipped wing on runway, thus causing it to flip over? Winds were 9, gusting to 26 at tine of landing. Not cross but tail.
TXCAVU
London Daily Mail has new information: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
MattHauke
Matt Hauke -2
They couldn't get a better more detailed witness statement then this????? It really pisses me off when the press goes for soundbites over factual statements.
"Witnesses inside the Aspen Airport watched as the plane came in for landing.
"It was moving, and then it was doing this (wobbling) and then it hit and flipped and there was smoke and a big ball of flames when it hit," said Julie Jacobs, a witness inside the airport."
bigfrog
Jimmy Anthony 1
if he came in too fast on the first attempt, I am "guessing" he might have made an adjustment to his speed to account for the reported 30 knot tail wind. on the 2nd attempt, he comes in a bit slower, however, the winds were gusting, now much slower then 30. As a result, he could have stalled it. As I wasn't there, this is pull speculation.
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
that's what happened to a Citation landing in Western North Carolina a couple of years ago and that is what I am leaning toward as well.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Don't know that a stall would fit in there. Looks like the reversers were out so that would indicate him being on the ground, unless it was a desperation move to get down. At any rate, as someone said up here, with the CVR and 2 surviving pilots, we oughta know before long
onceastudentpilot
tim mitchell 1
not sure about the stall....I was referring to the plane rolling due to the wind and the wing striking the runway.
mwf117
Hi Elizabeth, I've become a little suspicious of the motivations of this site, as they seem to always thrive a lot on 'shock news', in a kind of 'anything to gain readers' vein almost. In our case our story surely is dramatic enough for them to take notice, but I'll treat their 'facts' with some discretion.
mwf117
..the list of tabloid headlines on the right also doesn't do anything to allay my suspicions..
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Perhaps the witness was a bit rattled after witnessing such an event and likely be less articulate than they may be under usual circumstances. And why are some of the members here so judgmental about people's usage of the language or spelling? Those are hardly the issues.
MattHauke
Matt Hauke 0
Then move on to the next witness who may not be. After all, the articular states there were multiple witnesses. Also, I am critical at the news reporting, not the actual witness.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Isn't it embarrassing to criticize someone's inability to report an event as well you'd like and then misspell a word? lol
MattHauke
Matt Hauke -2
Don't know what your problem is, but you seemed confused so let me spell it out for you. This is a forum where people make comments. This isn't a spelling contest or a grammar rodeo. I said nothing about the grammar or spelling in the article I was commenting on, just the content. One has nothing to do with the other and if the article had bad grammar or misspellings, I wouldn't have commented on it because I couldn't give a sh!t. You're the embarrassment Donna.

Hope that clears it up for you.
WithnailANDi
WithnailANDi 1
Just get back to telling us about the ARTICULAR! Bwahahahaha!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Now I'll clear it up for you - I was simply teasing you Matt. Good gosh, relax.
MattHauke
Matt Hauke -1
Wow, we got a regular Don Rickles here. You're the type of person who buys a car all for looks (spelling or grammar) and not on quality (content). Then you wonder why your car repair bills are through the roof.
siriusloon
siriusloon 1
So it's OK for you to criticize others, but god help anyone who dares to say something to you that gets your panties twisted? It takes a big man to dish it out but not be able to take it.

Of course, you need to have the last word, so go for it, but I won't see it. I'm done with this thread. Now you have to decide if you should prove me right by having the last word, or prove me wrong and not post a reply, no matter how much you really, really want to. It's a dilemma, Matt. Whatever will you do? LOL
kwu20001
kev wu -2
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Best coverage of the Aspen Crash in Colorado

(CNN) -- At least one person died when a small plane crashed while trying to land at the Aspen, Colorado, airport Sunday, said Alex Burchetta with the Pitkin County Sheriff's Office.
Two other people were transported to the hospital with "moderate to severe injuries," he said.
Photos posted on Twitter showed the plane upside down on the tarmac, its fuselage charred.
Two celebrities, who were at the small airport in the Aspen ski resort area, posted Twitter messages saying they witnessed the crash.
"So sad! Horrible plane crash we just saw happen at the Aspen airport," singer LeAnn Rimes tweeted.
Comedian Kevin Nealon tweeted: "Horrible plane crash here at Aspen airport. Exploded into flames as it was landing. I think it was a private jet. Fire truck and ambulances were on the scene within minutes."
FAA spokesman Allen Kenitzer said the twin-engine jet was a Bombardier Challenger 600 that was coming from Tucson, Arizona.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/us/colorado-plane-crash/
ssjan
Jan F 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Private jet crashes at Aspen Airport

A private jet crashed at a small airport in Aspen, Colorado on Sunday. The plane crashed early in the afternoon and delayed flights in and out of the airport.

http://jansaviation.com/news.php?art=private-jet-crashes-at-aspen-airport
lboyette
Lloyd Boyette 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Plane crashes at Aspen airport; 1 dead, 2 injured

A private plane crashed while attempting to land at an airport in Aspen, Colo., on Sunday, eyewitnesses and aviation officials said.

http://news.yahoo.com/aspen-plane-crash-201123530.html
planotxwx
Dave Wood 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Upside-down in Aspen…

No further info other than this. Looks like a private jet upside down on Aspen runway….

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151957078928005
KevinBrown
Kevin Brown 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

BREAKING: Private Jet crash Aspen CO

Developing story

Private jet has just crashed in Aspen. From pictures tweeted it appears to be a Challenger Jet but unconfirmed.

Updates to follow

https://twitter.com/CMorrisSinger/status/419918979725922304/photo/1
Chiefapache
Hector Vazquez -1
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Jet crashes on landing at Aspen, Colorado, airport, killing 1

(CNN) -- At least one person died when a small plane crashed while trying to land at the Aspen, Colorado, airport Sunday, said Alex Burchetta with the Pitkin County Sheriff's Office.

Two other people were transported to the hospital with "moderate to severe injuries," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/us/colorado-plane-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1