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Squawks & HeadlinesSouthwest Flight Takes Off with Door Wide Open

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Southwest Flight Takes Off with Door Wide Open

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"On your next flight, should you look out the window and make sure your plane's door is closed before the flight leaves? ABC News reports that a Southwest flight from Houston to Dallas took off with a cargo door open." (www.smartertravel.com) More...

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tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 11
I'd like also to point out that the headline is a bit exaggerated. As noted, the B737 cargo doors (passenger versions) open inward...and there is a catch to hold them up against the bottom of the cabin floor. That would indeed be "wide open", and is unlikely to have been the case. However, when they are merely unlatched, then more correctly they appear "ajar".

One possible scenario could be a door not latched properly, and then appearing slightly open (triggering the warning lights and Master Caution) just after lift-off.

But, all Boeings are pressurized on the ground to 0.125 PSI when pressurization is operated in 'AUTO'(to reduce pressure "bumps" in people's ears); but an inward-opening door can still be operated if need be at that minimal PSID, so I suppose a door could shake loose from its latching mechanism.

Here's a similar (?) NASA ASRS report from 2010:

http://www.37000feet.com/report/877694/B737-700-returned-to-the-departure-airport-when-an-aft-cargo-door
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
I cannot visualize that door just not being latched properly... I have worked on thousands of 737 cargo doors. Next to impossible. If it is not hard latched, there is an indication in the cockpit.. Pressurizing prior to take off would further seal teh door. Coming open in flight is next to impossible. It had to be wide open on take off. if it was just partially opened it would have been bouncing and not considered wide open. This is obviously shared fault of the Ground Crew and flight crew a like.
flyingcookmosnter
flyingcookmosnter 20
737 cargo bins open inwards last I checked so you wouldn't be able to see from the cabin. No danger to anyone - more sensationalized reporting.
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
You are correct, it is a PLUG DOOR as it is called.. I guess they may have had a big problem while trying to pressurize..

I can just hear the CVR now...

FO - For some reason we are not pressurizing
Captain - You had better pull out the QRH.
FO - For some reason we have a Cargo Door Caution, could that be the problem.
Captain - It is probably just a faulty indication.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 7
And then back on the ground, "could not duplicate problem..."
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 2
Could be. But, it is also possible to defer a Cargo Door light for re-dispatch. Write it up, placard the light 'INOP'. Then, all you need is confirmation (usually be a mechanic) via the ground interphone that the door has been visually checked and verified before each departure.

These procedures are spelled out in each airline's deferred maintenance program documentation.
sparkie624
sparkie624 -4
It is possible... But why did not not notice that they were not pressurizing on the ground before take off.... Doh.. Another sign they missed because they were in a hurry... That is the SWA way... HURRY, HURRY, HURRY, RUSH RUSH RUSH.
jrbeejay
John Beech 3
You do not pressurise on the ground until 80 knots on the take off run.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
You are in correct on that... Boeing 737's start pressurizing once off the gate. I know a lot of planes, even the CRJ does. All boeings that I know of pressurize to 500 feet below field elevation this helps with passenger comfort. The DC-9 and a lot of of McDonald Douglas pre-bankruptcy did not have this feature.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
To expand on the previous post:

Here is another siomialr incident, many years ago (1995) also on a B737-300, from the NASA ACRS:

http://www.37000feet.com/report/297286/Flight-crew-operated-aircraft-with-intermittent-cargo-door-open-light

Every MEL item has specific narratives to comply with. Door lights as I mentioned require qualified visual inspection, and of course any abnormal pressurization indications are cause for concern. Conversely, if no pressurization problems, then "Doors" lights usually an switch/sensor fault.
ssobol
Stefan Sobol 1
A plug door does not guarantee that the door only opens inward. On the 737 the cabin doors are all plug doors and when open they are outside of the fuselage. You can see this any time you get on one.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
In the case of the 737 cargo door, it opens inward... Guaranteed.
rebelx4xchrist
Paul Smith 4
I think this news article is somewhat sensationalized and some key facts are missing from it.
jkudlick
Jeremy Kudlick 5
Some? That's a hell of an understatement...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 3
This is not very clear, was it the door or just the light???
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
The door was physically open... It was obviously never latched.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Will it matter, my friend THRUSTT ? Either way the aiecraft has to return as a matter of abundant caution !
YES, if it was JUST light going 'on' the the error may pass off as being minor. But will still need checking up . No ?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
It was just not a light. They could not pressurize.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
Details Details LOL
JCMIA
James Carlin 2
OK OK run this past me one more time, just in case I misunderstood anything you said. My luggage is where? It fell out of the plane?
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
There goes someone's on-time arrival record.
At least it wasn't the forward passenger door. THAT would really need 'splainin.
Will stay tuned....
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, there are 139 comments here and this makes 140 but there seems to be a common thread:

A 737 door is a plug type door and will not open if properly locked

Some feel that the crew got in a hurry and disregarded the warning lite or thought it
was INOP.

At any rate, the story said the light came on AFTER takeoff and they had to come back in.

Now,There was nothing in the story that says whether the door was actually open or not, just that they came back in to have it checked. I do not care much for no aviation eyewitness reports and consequently cannot really see where all this speculation is coming from.
TorstenHoff
Torsten Hoff 2
Someone is going to have some 'splainin to do...
southerncalispotting
SoCal Spotter 2
Well looks like they'll be replacing a few suitcases. :P
KauaiGolfer
KauaiGolfer 2
After closing a 737 cargo door, a wise ramper should always give it a good push to make sure it's locked closed. It is possible for the door to appear closed and not actually be locked down. Back in the 90's, a major carrier had one of their 727-200's take off out of MEM with the rear cargo door open, and the support bar locked in place. Now that one you could've seen from your window, but not on a 737. The 727 came back around and landed safely, and several people had some explaining to do, crew and ramp guys!
travismelvin
Travis Melvin 2
when I worked ramp for delta in tulsa, we would be notified by flight crew if the cargo door(s) was still opened especially before push back. With the 737 being so big you would think that someone would of noticed a door open either on pushback (a wingwalker should of seen it) or during a final walk-around at the gate.
toolguy105
toolguy105 2
First of all the indicator light should've been on as soon as the door the cargo door was open and should have remained on until the cargo door was closed. Second; with the door open the pilot would have had a problem trying to pressurize as he climbed through 10,000 feet. Third; anyone that's been in the army or the Air Force who's flown with the jump doors open can tell you how drafty it gets when they open the doors so would have been some discomfort for the passengers with it doors open. Fourth this was a much more serious situation and some might think with the cargo door open baggage and any cargo on board would start exiting the aircraft and could harm people on the ground as well as severely damage the aircraft as the cargo exits.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 2
I would think the door open lite would be on in the air or on the ground. If that's the case either ground crew or air crew or both screwed up, or there was a faulty lite. Pilots got to log an extra circuit anyway. Lol
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
You missed number 5. Since Cargo compartments have to be sealed because of fire hazards the open door will create a vacuum which could create structure problems to the cabin floor.... Plus on top of that, the Cargo door is a part of the A/C structure and that is where a lot of support and stress is located.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Aft 727 and 737 doors are different.
toolguy105
toolguy105 1
Point well made. Did not think that far ahead. Would have if I had related to the cargo doors on first production of DC10s
pdixonj
pdixonj 1
I remember this happening on two Delta flights back around '97. Both 727s, one departing from ATL and the other from BDL, both aft cargo doors I believe. Nothing ever came of either of them, except a return to the airport and (at least in the case of the ATL flight) a few lost bags. Also, with the ATL flight I think they had to shut down the starboard engine, but that just might of been standard procedure.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
probably, but hard to tell... If they forgot to close the door, they probably forgot to attach cargo net as well.
captainjman
Jason Feldman 1
Agree 100% :)

There is no way that a flight crew took off with a master warning (RED) - with warning flashers - and EFIS displaying the warning in red, and the door page (which is checked prior to push) must have shown that the doors were closed.

Also, I flew a plane recently, the Piaggio P180, and it was a POS - it constantly had door issues. The seals would leak constantly, the door was designed by a drunk idiot... or at least I imagine he must have been because it was one of the worst designed parts of a plane with plenty of bad design issues.

anyway- we would take off with the door indicating closed ALL THE TIME - and on climb out as the Delta P would increase, the door would shift slightly, or the seals would, and the pin in the door would move ever so slightly and would indicate an issue.

There are amber and red alerts - both have flashers - one would indicate a single door pin, the other would indicate if there was a bigger problem.

I am sure preacher1 knows all about those damn doors too ;)
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I think you is right.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
For one thing, it was not read as it would have been a caution... They would have reset the cautions on the ground... Unless they recalled them they would not have been shown.

You are correct on the Delta P, but in this case it is a plug door, it would have only gotten tighter, impossible for that door to come open in flight.

I hate to disagree with you, but since they did not do a recall of the Master Caution and Warnings they had no indications in front of them. On the 737 it is not displayed on the EFIS, but rather what we term as 6 packs, and they overlooked the overhead door indication light on the over head panel... Yes, they took off with the door open....

Please note: http://www.b737.org.uk/warningsystems.htm as this will show how it is displayed on ALL 737's, old and new a like. I have YEARS of experience working these a/c. A Piaggio P180 has NOTHING in common with a 737, and other than the fact that these 2 airplanes are pressurized they have NOTHING in common and thus your issues to the doors are unfounded.
preacher1
preacher1 1
This happening is a trip and as I already said here, it is a strange happening.

On the other subject, the P180, at least after a period of time, turns into a POS, not just the door. It is something that makes nice eye candy off a dealer's ramp and a wonderful test flight when new. Like a lot of other cheaply constructed things, it starts falling apart after a while.

BTW, how you a doing anyway? I have been so sick with the creeping crud this past week, I marked plumb off the board until about mid week
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Many, not just 'someone' .
The warning light didn't glow ? Or some thing like that .
Or was it to pick some one on the way ? ha ha ha
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 0
The door light came on just after takeoff, according to the report (scanty as it is). The crew would never have pushed back with any door lights illuminated (unless it had been placarded INOP, then the door is verified by qualified personnel per whichever procedures are in place for a deferred maintenance item).

With any door (even the cargo doors) the airplane might not pressurize, so continuing the flight was out of the question, only resort is to return to departure point (or takeoff alternate, if applicable).
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 0
Kauai, the B727 fuselage (and thus the doors) are identical to the B737. You mentioned a B727-200 out of KMEM, could it have been a FedEx all cargo (freighter) version? In that case, the only difference from the passenger version is a forward upper-deck cargo door, and it opens outward and up:
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/startup/pdf/freighters/727F_ext.pdf
KauaiGolfer
KauaiGolfer 2
Tim, I'm afraid you are incorrect. 727-200 doors are very different from the 737's doors. I've literally loaded thousands of each. And the 727-200 out of MEM was not Fed Ex. It was a passenger carrier.
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
That is BS... That DOOR is NOT going to open after take off. IMPOSSIBLE.

If the door is placarded inop, prior to push the Captain or FO must in person verify that the door is closed, and not rely on ground personel for that. Bottom line, the crew screwed up. and to say MIGHT NOT PRESSURIZE... LOL There is no engine in the world that could pressurize through that opening. Not even a 777 engine.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 2
"sparkie624", no the CA nor FO does not need to physically verify (unless so specified in the MEL). Unless this happens to be the case at SWA (I doubt).

And, "might not" pressurize means that the door light could be a faulty indication, even if the door is firmly closed. Secondly, if the door is not fully latched, and there is a small gap around the edge, then that outflow of air isn't necessarily too large for it to still pressurize. Look at how big the regular Outflow Valve is...it will modulate towards full closed, if needed.

Also yes, an opening as large as the area of the baggage door on the B737 would preclude any pressurization, but this is not the case, here.

Finally, this NASA ASRS:
http://www.37000feet.com/report/877694/B737-700-returned-to-the-departure-airport-when-an-aft-cargo-door

Note the text: "As it turned out; the door was slightly open and there was a strap caught between the door and the sensor that was preventing the door from closing properly.".
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
That door is a positive lock.... If that door is open even in the slightest it is not going to pressurize... Any half smart crew would have verified their pressurization. You can feel it. When they engage that. They should have noticed that they did not pressurized... This is not a good crew. They rushed to finish the checklist, probably close or behind schedule. Wanted to make up time and screwed up. There are too many signs the crew should have picked up. Any decent crew would have felt something.

I can set in back of the plane and know something is not correct. I have made comments to crews about something, they deny it, and I tell them, give me a break. I am an a/c mechanic and I know every feeling on this a/c. Once I told one he had a pressurization issue and he came clean stating that his auto failed and he had to go to stby.. Anyone with any experience would know the signs early.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear Friend sparkie624, can you educate me on a few aspects related to all this episode ?
Is there some audio/visual indicator to show the status of ALL doors/locks?
Are these indicators located at easy-to-see places ?
Does the pilot/copilot check ALL such signs BEFORE starting to pressurize ?
Does the cabin pressure gauge not indicate the the response to pressurisation process ?
Are all these not a part of standard/routine 'check list' before leaving/taxiing/take off ?
Yes, it may be evident that I am trying to rope in the cock pit crew too along with the erring ground staff !
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Yes there is. It is not an aural warning for this, but there are 2 visual signs. On the over head panel there is a DOOR Annunciator panel that lights up that has ALL of the doors on the a/c listed by name. In addition there is a panel in front of the crew called "Master Caution Panel" that has the words "DOORS" as well as many others that tell them to look at the over panel to see which door is not closed, or closed properly.

Ref: http://www.b737.org.uk/warningsystems.htm#Warning_Lights and notice the MASTER CAUTION Lights and the individual systems. If there is a problem, then they should do a more detailed check of the system. In this case, they obviously did not.

Question 3: Yes, there are 2 systems that Boeing uses, and this plane could have head either one. I looked at the picture in the article, and believe it or not, the person doing the article posted an Airbus cockpit and not a Boeing... and to think no one would notice... At any rate.. One has a FLT/GND switch the pilot selects after the cabin door is closed, and that will start the process automatically, and the newer system is automated when the door closes. The cabin pressure indicator will show the pressurization to -500 feet field elevation referencing 29.92. In auto, the set the Cruise altitude, and landing elevation, and everything else is programmed.

Question 4: Yes, it is part of the checklist.

I personally hold the crew very accountable for this... Sure the ground crew goofed, but it is obvious that they did not cover the checklist completely, if at all. Probably some high timer that is good high and mighty, already knew everything, and all was good. Bottom line, the last thing they should have done was to push the caution recall before entering the runway.... By that time they would have beep pressurized and that door would have been impossible to open on its own without a full structural failure of the a/c.

Sorry for being so wordy, but you asked for a lot. :)
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The crew proably didn't miss seeing the faulty indication... I mean... wide open cargo door light. They just assumed that no one would leave the cargo door wide open and not notice it during push back.

They were wrong.

Turns out that this time it wasn't a faulty indication. The good news is that try won't have to MEL the door open light afterall.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Sorry ? You should be proud to be so wordy. You sure do make a good teacher. Yes, no doubt, I asked for it. The link given! OMG. So marvelous, though sadly limited to B737 only, I think. Any possibility of knowing of similar links for other aircraft types ?
I am at a loss of words to thank you enough. I roam here to learn about aircrafts and the craft ingrained into them. I am doing arm chair learning about flying. Why ? So that I can understand and appreciate what many of you go through and have gone through over time. So that I can FEEL what you(aviators) write or express on this forum !
My sincere thanX again .
JetMech24
JetMech24 1
They haven't used the FLT/GND switch since the 727 and 737-200.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
over 10 years of my maintenance experience was on the 737 and I know that one well. Some of my time regrettably was with SWA, but they did not meet my standards for good maintenance and a company that I wanted to work for. As for other a/c, all have some sort of system that shows which individual doors are open. In the case of the CRJ for example it is a message to some effect that would say "Cargo Door Open", "Pax Door", "Service Door", and etc... These messages are displayed on the EICAS (one of the on-board monitors. The reason that I chose the images from the 737 in particular is because SWA only and exclusively flies the Boeing 737.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
When they are at the end of the runway, awaiting take off clearance before they start rolling they are supposed to press the recall and see if cautions are displayed... they obviously did not do that.. They would have been well of the gate.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I guess , I do not need any other link for any other a/c. Because the link given by you gives PLENTY of information, if not all , about the a/c. And that is my objective for learning about these birds.
ThanX again for the link about B737 !
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Yes, and like you have stated earlier, almost ALL will have a lot of explaining to do.
Most important, that it was a major error of negligence/omission BUT no major damage done.
But lessons must be learnt by ALL.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
We do not know or have heard about damage yet... That is a part of structure, and they probably just had a visual inspection and kicked it out. May now know for years if it did any damage... and then no one will remember.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Right now only damaged egos. Lol
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I hope ego's is the only thing that gets damaged, and we do not get the big let down at a later date.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I'm with ya. I hope so too.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Are you saying that a 737 couldn't fly with all of its' doors removed and wide open doorways without the likelihood of structural damage at low altitude, or even fly at high altitude with doors wide open and pilots wearing oxygen masks without such damage?

I would like to think that doors' contribution to structural integrity would be redundant, and that a fuselage without doors would have complete structural integrity on its' own.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear PhotoFinish, let me reinforce your view as I have understood. Easiest example to understand is doors and windows in a wall in a building ! These DO NOT bear any load. For load bearing a special beam is placed OVER the recess meant for doors and windows ! This beam bears the load in the wall !
And therefore, with all doors and windows removed, the aircraft will fly 'beautifully' though with a lot of drag and instability which are not the points in issue .
The design of doors and windows will be limited to provide air sealing and stream lining .
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
No, not saying that at all.. All that I am saying is that the door is a part of the structure. As a part of the door being open, and the vacuum that would applied, not to mention possible airframe twisting could cause future stress issues that at this point are undetectable. If all goes as planed at the next heavy maintenance visit they will do NDT inspection and find anything else that could be a result of this, but will probably just be blamed on a/c aging. BTW, the NDT is routine maintenance in heavy maintenance to find cracks that are beneath the surface that you cannot see with your naked eye.

There are some planes that in the AMM states not to taxi or tow the plane with a door open due to twisting. The 737 is not that way, but I think the 747 is.
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, I know a Mad Dog looks like a weiner dog, buttoned up but unpressurized getting ready for takeoff, just floppin' around.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are incorrect. These doors can be, and many times are load bearing. The doors on the 737 do carry load.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Can't tell you for sure who us right about the structural nature of plane doorways.

But he actually wrote the opposite of what you suggested he wrote.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear Friend sparkie624, amusingly despite the difference of opinion we BOTH are correct ! Plus PhotoFinish. How ?
The door has to bear various loads like wind pressure and/or the vacuum and so on. Hence they have to be strong. Just like you said.
The point raised was about strength of the structure, the fuselage of the a/c. As PhotoFinish said. Supplemented by me. Not the strength of the door or the window itself ! For that reason, even the glass of the windows has to be very tough and strong ! Hence, praise the Almighty, we all are right.
Got it ?
Wish you happy blogging.
P.S. - If the door or a window that can open/close were to be load bearing they would not open/close ! Due to deformity caused by load, howsoever small the deformity be. Deformity caused in the recess meant for the door or the window.
For further details , please contact your nearest and favourite structural engineer. :-p
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
It has to do with structure because it helps prevent fuselage twisting. It is also a load bearing door. That is the way it is made. If you look close there are 3 windows... One inside and one outside, those are the ones that carry the forces and the middle one is mainly a back up window in case the first one breaks. The 3rd is cosmetic only and is the one that gets scratched up on the inside.

Keep in mind that this is to be load bearing in flight... Not while open. When it is close and pressurized, it is part of the structure.
JetMech24
JetMech24 1
737 cargo doors are structure due to they hold pressurization loads, no weight or aerodynamic loads, other aircraft with large outward swinging doors are the ones that carry loads other then pressure and must be closed during the aircraft being even towed.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Not exactly correct. It plays a role in preventing fuselage twisting.
JetMech24
JetMech24 1
Not on the 737.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Am I correct that so far not a single comment has come from the REAL aeronautical structural engineer ? ;-p
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Can you reach out to one who is familiar with the engineering of the 737 structure and report back to us here in the forum?
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
You're an old dog with lots of experience. It'll be a long time before the young 'uns get enough old-school experience to immediately recognize half as much as you.
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
Thanks for the compliment.... Experience is something you cannot buy... It has to acquired... The way I see it there are 2 ways... The School of Hard Knocks or to learn from others entering the School of Hard Knocks.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
Well said, my friend sparkie624. Experience is like a light and/or colours to be seen and felt as well as like air/wind and sound, to be felt and smelled/heard ! Notwithstanding all the measuring/ sensing gadgetry !
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 0
All the modern diagnostic computers are great. But the younger generation that learns on them, may not learn to listen to their patient err... plane, to figure out what's wrong.
seahawker01
Ryan Moran -1
Dude what is your malfunction? How do you determine that a crew screwed up from a poorly written article? Do you have some actual knowledge to share? Do you really think the door was left open or is this a case of a precautionary landing getting blown out of proportion?
BTW you need to go back to school. While I am not familiar with the 737, the pre-pressurization mode you speak does not happen off the gate. If there were an emergency, how would the cabin doors be opened? Pre-pressurization only happens on take-off and is not checked by the crew. There is too much going on and even if you did notice you are not pressurizing would you really want to abort that far into the takeoff?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 0
A small suggestion on the art of being polite !
Consult or check how lawyers argue in the appellate courts? How do they speak or argue to prove that the judge/s of the courts below were no less than idiots in pronouncing the kind of judgement they delivered. !
And nobody gets hurt. I hope you know that.
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
LOL, the art of being polite reminds me of how to say "Merry Christmas" in legalese.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
How ? Please do enlighten .
Let me impress my Christian friends in the Choir I sing with in coming December .
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
Specifically, it means replacing Merry Christmas with Happh Holidays or some similar non-specific holiday greeting in order to be inclusive and PC (politically correct).
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
72 door opens outwards, I vaguely remember the bar too, this is going back in the 80's working for CO on EWR's ramp...
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
Been too many years, the brain cells that held those memories must have died by now....CAL in EWR, eh? I was based in DEN in the 80s until base closed, but bid off of the B727 in 1986. Transferred to IAH, then LAX (it closed) then to EWR, since it was most junior (except for GUM).

I remember the flight deck, but not the walk-around details any more.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I came back from Overseas in 72; mustered out at McChord. paperwork throwed me late for flight at Sea-Tac. CO held a 72 that had already boarded standbys, they stuck me in the Jump seat to Denver. It was that or bump a guy I set next to all the way back from over yonder. Tickled me to death. What a way to go, and I was already in civvies, planning on having to dodge the 'Nam vet welcoming committee at Sea Tac. I doubt in these post 911 days that something like that could happen.Heck Tim, you may have been my Captain.LOL
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Sad, what a way to go. But that is life, my friend preacher1. In a heartless and thankless ungrateful world.
This makes me sit up and think the relevance of the proverbial 'walking the board' in the marine world of the yore !
preacher1
preacher1 1
I don't really understand from where you come. A jump seat and cockpit ride on a 727 was just short of Heaven. If you are speaking of the 'Nam welcoming committee at SeaTac, they spit on and cat called everybody coming in from that way. They met all of the McChord and Ft Lewis buses and taxis, regardless of where you had been.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Came thru LAX in 71. Reception less organized, but same level of enthusiasm and invective. Glad it's changed.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I came thru Ft Lewis in 71. Same thing. Take an indefinite ETS and go back to Nam or get out today. Still had over a year to serve on my commitment. Unemployed just that quick. Life is good! Lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
Well, I was coming back for separation, and about a month early so they didn't have to ask me anything, but there had been multiple attempts to get me to take a short and re up for 4 more. 1 bad screwing was enough. Never was a prettier sight than that gold tailed bird heading for the house, with me on it. LOL
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
You have a better memory. I can't remember which airline was my steed. Probably United to ORD. I do remember spending several hours in a SeaTac lounge celebrating. We celebrated everything back then. Lol
preacher1
preacher1 1
LOL. Hell as tight as I was running I didn't have time and then being on the flight deck, couldn't have one. I had a little over 2 hours in Denver though, connecting to OKC. Cap gave me a voucher for their lounge at Stapleton, good for a meal & 5 drinks. That was plenty.LOL
Derg
Roland Dent 1
You guys came out well..you still had faith in humanity. USA is really an amazing place. Character building. Wrong to put all in the same basket and I am sure you have plenty of crapolla but all in all you are resilient. I suppose that comes out in the way most of you ended up there..on the run from Europe.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Nice to hear you speak highly of US. However, we now seem to be doing our best to imitate Europe. Lol
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
Yeah I used to roam around the airport, it was heaven. Driving by the old Zantop airplanes wondering what the hell they were...
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
LOL, What idiots... If the door was wide open, that means it was latched in the up position. That also means the captain missed the door message/annunciator light. That just goes to show you how bad that they want to maintain and on time schedule that they do not even check the most simple to look at cautions before push back.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 2
You're putting an awful lot of trust in a news report from ABC. Their idea of wide open and yours may differ significantly. I've read this article multiple time and my reaction remains the same, HUH? Looking out the window would not help discover an open door any where on the airplane. In paragraph 2, the sophisticated airplane did not take itself off. Two sophisticated highly trained pilots operated the aircraft and took it off unlike SUVs that crash themselves into crowds of pedestrians. What I can believe is a baggage handler or ground crew member left the door unlatched and some how opened during takeoff against the cabin pressurization . ABC, NBC and CBS are all know for their exaggerated headlines to sell their wares, just like newspapers have done for centuries. What would we do without the tabloids and rags. Looks like the pilots missed the pressurization hint
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 2
sparkie624, as noted down below, it is unlikely the door was "wide open". This "eyewitness" account smells fishy.

Do you know how the Caution/Warning system annunciation works on the B737? Here:
http://www.b737.org.uk/images/mc_rhs.jpg

This is on the glareshield panel, F/O side. Similar on the Captain's side, different annunciations. Cautions (amber) illuminate on the respective cluster (6 per cluster) and the square amber 'Master Caution' light illuminates. Pressing the square light turns it off, cancels alerts and re-sets for other alerts.

The "Recall" feature is used by pressing either annunciator panel to check if an amber light on the Overhead Panel has been overlooked. Door lights are on the Overhead Panel.

The "Before Takeoff" checklist or "Before Taxi" checklist (depending on operator's FOM procedures) includes the "Recall" action item. Example:
http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/quinnyfly/B737CHECKLISTPART1.jpg

This is likely very similar to what SWA uses and is based on Boeing recommendations. It is also very similar to my airline's.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I have over 10 years of working on 737's and I know that system very well. Even if it was not wide open, if they had closed it with the handle, it COULD NOT have opened... Totally impossible. Before take off they pressurize, That is a plug door and could not have opened... It is very clear that the Ground Crew and Flight crew screwed up. The Recall feature is only for the Master Caution. The door light on the overhead panel is going to be on if that door is not positively locked... PERIOD. If it is on MEL the crew is supposed to verify that the door is closed before push back.

There is no valid reason for this happening... That system is so simple it is almost fail safe.. but this proves that it is not Idiot Proof.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 2
Wow !
Fool proof but not idiot proof !
Well said.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
LOL, You find something that is Idiot Proof and I will find an Idiot that will Prove it Wrong.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
U R right.
It's impossible to find some thing that is " idiot proof " !
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
Not putting very much trust in the news media, but I put even less on the pilots. If that door was even cracked open, the crew should have known before they got to the runway. The system on that a/c cannot turn that light out if that door is not in a 100 percent positive lock. I do not care if the door was wide open, or 1/4" open. Open is open and the messages are all the same.
mhlansdell00
Mark Lansdell 3
Everything you've said has been based on a fallacious and poorly written article about an ABC report. Mysterious eye witnesses making questionable, judgmental statements, spokesmen referencing warning lights and when they activated, all crapola. If this woman would have written this drivel even 10 years ago, I doubt she would be writing professionally for anyone today. It's clear you have no respect for airplane drivers, that's up to you.
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
You are in correct. Everything that I have spoken of is based on my knowledge of how the plane works. That door CANNOT come open in flight as it is a plug door. If it was open upon landing, that is because it was open on departure, and the crew missed the warnings. Forget the news, they are crazy.. But I know the plane inside and out.
preacher1
preacher1 1
I'm kinda leaning toward the RUSH RUSH RUSH HURRY HURRY HURRY comment that Sparkie made below, that the light was working as it should or got ignored/ was gonna put it on the list at the next stop.
QualityArt
Arthur Moss 1
What happened to the door warning light.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
The only quote I found:
Jeff Weingart was killing time at the airport when he saw it all unfold.

"I couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "I couldn't believe a plane as sophisticated as they are would take off with the cargo door open."

sounds like the door was visibly open. I haven't found anything else to back that up.

So, is 1 witness enough?

Link w/ quote below:


http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=9238123
USAROC
usa roc 1
It is true that they open inward and their is a latch... but there is a safety pin installed to keep the door from falling down and hitting baggage handlers in the head... sometimes the counter weight would be inop so you needed to pin the door open just to keep it open long enough to load. So yes you can push and fly if the pin is in place and the door would not drop back.
ToddBaldwin3
Todd Baldwin 1
I think the reporting on this story was extremely exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. I seriously doubt the "eyewitness" account. This was reported in the Aviation Herald on Friday, 06SEP13.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4680550e&opt=0
bigkahuna400
bigkahuna400 1
On a different subject, can anyone explain why Southwest still uses the Western Airlines tail numbers like N14WN? Even on new planes they are using it. Why have they not completed switched to the newer Southwest tail numbers?
tomkennedy
Tom Kennedy 1
OK, dumb question. Wouldn't a cargo door open light have been on the whole time? The report said the light came on "right after takeoff."
falcodriver
Geoffrey Galitzine 1
OK,I hear all the reassuring stuff from the professionals - I am strictly General Aviation - about warning lights and doors not actually being open, but locks being not quite engaged, but wasn't there a Turkish Airlines DC10 out of Paris 30 odd years ago that crashed with large loss of life? I seem to remember that the investigation attributed the cause to be that a ground handler left a cargo door unlocked, which then detached at altitude, the subsequent depressurisation of the cargo bay buckling the cabin floor so severing the control lines running to the tail.
Now the DC10 is a very old design and I am sure that modern designs leave less room for error, but a warning is a warning and these guys did actually take off.
tjmb
Tom Jones 1
Let's see...SWA flight lands on its nose gear, SWA flight takes off with door open..should I be flying SWA next month?
TWA55
Vincent Birkett 1
Hope there were no dogs back there, or an agent stacking bags..ha I have seen more then one acrft attempt to leave the gate w/ cargo doors open, even the none plug type, 727.
marknine
Wm. Mark Meiggs 1
Inward or outward...irrelevant. You don't operate with a cargo door open. Period. In the 73..at least SWA's there's an annunicator in plain sight. Check cross check...
Camcopelin
Cameron Copelin 1
I wonder if the pilot left his coffee cup on the top of the cabin to?
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Is there any competent aeronautical structural engineer on this forum who can throw some light and settle the dispute whether doors and windows bear the structural load ? And whether aircraft structure will withstand the stresses during flight when and if doors are removed ? Doors per say are made strong, just like car doors but without doors the car runs and no deformity occurs in the body of the car !
So, what about aircraft in similar situations(flying) ?
R123154
R123154 1
I witnessed this same incident one time in Roanoke Va with a very very popular airline.I was operating a refueler and noticed the door open on an F-28 when it turned to taxi out.The ramp guys had been trying to turn the aircraft as quick as possible and I guess one thought the other had closed the door but thank goodness I was able to get in touch with operations for the airline and they called the tower and sent it back to the gate.They closed the door on the aircraft while it was still running both engines and it taxied out and took off like it never happened.I used to wait in operations of this airline and not a word was ever spoken of the incident.Thank the good lord times have changed ( some anyway )
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
Now that you mention that... I was working up in what is termed the HELL HOLE one day on the line. Had a ladder under the tail and the door open.. Of course with the APU running, I had my hearing protection on and headlight so I could see.... Next thing I knew the plane starts to push back... I looked back and the door is closed (A ramper thought I had forgot to close it, still looking for his butt)... Believe me, I gave the captain some pilot discrepancies that he could not fly with starting with APU INOP, Both Stab Trim INOP, FDR INOP, CVR INOP, and any other canon plug I could get my hands on.... Even gave him some uncommanded flight control movements. LOL, when a mechanic came up to check things out, I looked down at him and said, let me out of here... I was on a witch hunt and I was mad... Before I got out, the mechanic asked me "Are you responsible for any of these failures?". and I said "yes, just reconnect all the canon plugs". No ramper ever confessed...

I too hope no animals where back there, but if a ramper was a dumb enough to not get out there, then he deserves what he gets.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I can not say with confidence that I understand the Av. lingo well. But have I got it right that you tried to 'pay back' by disconnecting the stated plugs ?
If so, was it in order that the a/c was set in motion by the pilot/s when you were still working on/in it ? And IF it was wrong, then it has to be YOU with an upper hand. And you should've done much more than just what you did ! Reported or not reported, that is not my point.
mpradel
Marcus Pradel 1
Very funny!
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
It sounded to me more akin to pulling the fire alarm to notify someone of a non-fire life threatening emergency.
Sort of like yelling FIRE when being robbed. Fewer people would respond to I'm being robbed!
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
LOL, funny now... I wish you were in that hole with me when the plane started moving...
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
I furthermore left the log book open with an open discrepancy that I was working on, and beyond everything else, he was taking the a/c without a sign off (or fix in this case). The crew was in the wrong big time and yes I was working on it. I put faults in every system that had a cannon plug for it that I could reach :) and that is a lot of systems...
preacher1
preacher1 1
Simple answer to your question. "YEAH HE DID" and you have a real good understanding of the situation. LOL
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
If there had been a fire alarm that I could have set off... I certainly would have. But I made sure he did not have enough systems to be able to get the plane airborne. I also put a screw driver in a rig pin hole that would have prevented any rudder movements and locked the rudder pedals. Like I said anything I could do to give them an error... The crew was not happy to see me, and even less happy to see the chief pilot.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Pardon the ignorance, but I am guessing the hole has the same pressurization issues the wheel-well hitchhikers run into?
Good reason to convince the PF that the tail was falling off!
LOL, now
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Well done. Good lesson for egocentric fellows !
Every one HAS to work as a team, howsoever low or high in the system. For every assignment, small or big, short lived or long lasting, every profession. NO EXCEPTION ! Even procreation can not be done 'alone'. For redundant male in an IVF procedure also, one big team is required ! ;-)
All have to remember, "No man is an island" . Also cf. the famous song of '60's by Ricky Nelson with same theme and titled 'I need You'.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Ricky Nelson !!! I don't remember the song but I do remember he had a DC 3. Heater caught on fire and burned him up by the time the pilot got them on the ground.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
All part of the professional ethics, the unwritten code of the etiquettes!
But my query remains. HOW could they move with you still working ? And if they did while they should not, they should be grateful to YOU for not kicking up a storm, if not a tornado ! For this blunder.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You got it.... As a matter of fact the door is Louvered.. Defintely was NOT pressurized. I was about 2 feet aft of the Pressure Bulkhead.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Very simply... Since it was Loud up there I was wearing my hearing protection (APU Running less than 3 feet from me. The item I was working on I was facing forward and the door was behind me. A Ramper saw the door opened, did not look up inside to see if anyone was up there. He (or she) closed the door and moved the ladder. The captain was loaded and ready to go and failed to see the logbook write was not yet signed off. Since the jetway got pulled back he assumed all was ready to go and they pushed the plane back. When the plane lurched and started moving back, I noticed the door was closed, and thus I figured I had better find a way to stop this plane. To put it in legal terms: "I felt my self in danger of grievous bodily harm" and did what I felt necessary to get the crew to do a gate return... There were about 15 canon plugs that I quickly disconnected giving him all sorts of warnings before his APU auto shutdown prior to engine start and the fact to locking his Rudder Pedals so he could not move them for his flight control check.

Bottom line it was not just one person... However, one person closed the door and moved the ladder, the crew missed the open logbook, and even though my maintenance truck was there, no one noticed that I was not in site... A few people made some bad mistakes.. Like I say... When the other mechanic saw all those area's he knew something was wrong in the tail and that is when the door opened.... and I wasted no time in getting out... and to put it politely.. I was up set to the worst magnitude...
preacher1
preacher1 1
I don't remember the song either, but the DC3 went down close to Tyler TX and there is still a dispute about whether it was the heater or if they were freebasing coke and started that way.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear friends WALLACE24 and preacher1, clearly you pretend to be 'know all' but you seem to highly ignorant. Do not blame memory for your lack of information or knowledge.
The least you could do, before to play me down, check up Youtube for the song, or may be even 'google' could fill the empty space in the memory cells of your brains.
Please do not show your contempt in such a vulgar way.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Your lines
' .... The captain (was loaded) ........ and failed to see the logbook write was not yet signed off......... he assumed all was ready to go ...... '

Key words - "failed to see" and another set is "he assumed" .
And yet some pilots wish to claim that they act with due care and diligence ? Commensurate with the sensitivity associated with this kind of job like flying an aeroplane worth $ 200/300+ Million and hundreds of invaluable humans ?

This is how accidents are caused.
They do not happen.
Any where and every where.

I am sure, that pilot would drive his car with better caution. For obvious reasons.

.
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
I meant no contempt. Just I hadn't heard of Ricky in a loooong time.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
To rephrase... The plane was loaded with Passengers. I do not want to accuse or make people thing he was under the influence of alcohol or something else, and yes he assumed.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
I don't think they were " playing you down" ( am sure the connotations elude me), just changing the subject somewhat. Which is how these threads turn into tapestries.
8-)
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Sorry, my mistake of using parenthesis which are conveying wrong meaning.
My emphasis continues to be the two expressions.
Ages ago when security wasn't a problem, during a halt I was chatting with the pilot out side and I asked him to show how pitch is made to vary. It was perhaps Fokker friendship or some thing . He got back to his seat and showed. In the mean time the ground staff came for routine check up. One of the guys was horrified and asked him ,' Sir, I notice some heavy oil leakage from .... hydraulic system because oil level was full when you started !'
Apparently the pilot understood and he explained about showing me the pitch variation system with engines 'killed'. The pilot had to restart the engine, run the oil pumps then stop it and the staff checked the oil level which was okayed. And signed off some document.
The ground staff was unsparing though in a very polite manner.
The idea here is that BOTH sides have to act as a team to achieve perfection.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Why is it a mindless contempt because you never tried Youtube as I suggested.

The link is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1hEW-4f1Hk

I hope preacher1 also reads this. 'Cause he too echoes your brainy sentiments.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I wrote in English and I hope you understand the meaning of word " ..'60's .. " in the sentence used by me " ..... the famous song of '60's by Ricky Nelson ...... " .
And that was long time ago qua the present time.
preacher1
preacher1 2
I just don't have any interest in Nelson. As James, the DC3 is of more interest. Just cause we didn't spend time
poking around on YOU TUBE to find a song we had no interest in, you kinda raw and grumpy accusing us of contempt. That's the American Way old man. Get used to it or get off here. If you take all such little crap as personal you are gonna have a hard way to go and really piss off a bunch of people
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
I hope English as a language has some meaning to you. If yes, you ought to understand the phrase ' No man is an island'.
If you do not understand that, I can only feel sorry for you , because that is what you failed to understand and appreciate in my original observation. Not what ever else I additionally stated as a metaphor.
preacher1
preacher1 1
As I said, I have no interest in Nelson. I grew up with him but as he doped and went bad, lost interest completely. Your offensive remarks take complete precedence over anything else you may have meant or intended. As you have been told by me and several others in the past, this forum was here long before you got on it. Best thing you can do is shut your mouth and listen and you will learn. If cannot do anything but berate those that post here, then the best thing you can do is leave, and believe me, I am trying to be nice here
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Offensive remarks? Mine ? Ha ha
A retaliation is some thing alien to you my friend.
Don't act or think Ztarish !
If you mock at a comment be ready for a reaction. From any body and every body.
Metaphors are to be used for aviation also.
So let us rest this futile debate here.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
" England an America, two countries divided by a common language" .
Some of us may not remember much about Mr. Nelson, beyond the Ozzie and Harriet Show...... sorry about that.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
It is a great "idea", but sometimes easier said than done... As far as the Fokker Friendship (or more commonly called the F28) I have 10 years of working on those planes. The rule on those plane is that if it is not leaking hydraulic fluid there is one simple reason.... "It Ran Out"... Those planes leaked Skyrol everywhere all the time it seamed like. Those SPEY Engines were good engines, and I really liked the speed brake on the rear.
preacher1
preacher1 1
That has been over 50 years ago and nobody gives a damn about a Nelson song. His name brought about memories of a DC3 crash and that is our right to choose what we remember of that name, and is no reason for you to come out be rating us for that, so instead of being nice I will simply say STFU! And that is the end of this conversation. Surely you know what that means
WALLACE24
WALLACE24 1
Your reading a whole lot into my simple comment. Just forget I wrote it please.
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear Friend preacher1, my simple comment had 3 parts,. You are sticking to the MOST insignificant part, the third and the last one. Why ?
Kindly stay on the first two which are relevant to the topic.
It is a free world and you can write as much as you like and the way you like. Of all people I am the last person to object.
Choice of words and ideas do represent the character of a person.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
The pilots in these forums are allowed to reminisce about whichever plane or crash they choose and which your comments may remind them. It's not your job to scold them because they haven't jumped through whatever hoops you'd hope they jump through. You may invite people to join you in a conversation, but you can't ever force free people to do what you please.

Give it a rest (especially with the attitude).
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Scold any one ? OMG ! How do I dare ? I am the least qualified person to do that.
Take this case. Saparkie624 recalled an experience between him and the a/c crew. Who and how can I be judgemental, especially not being from aviation world ? Being an engineer I will try to understand the situation and try to enjoy ! With help or without it.
Specialized banter HAS to be between people from the trade. I am like a spectator watching a game who does comment now and then about the playing techniques the players can or should adopt. But that comment is NEVER made to the player ! Because that is to be left to the specialists of the game concerned.
preacher1
preacher1 1
He's in another world and still does not understand the depth of his comment or that he said anything wrong. Have a nice weekend
bigkahuna400
bigkahuna400 1
I am referring to the WN and SW in the tail no.
snowboss
Sandy Sandmire 1
Western Airlines were W or WA.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
You are correct.. and they failed the cross check.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Nothing happened to it... They just forgot to look at it... :)
QualityArt
Arthur Moss 1
tomkennedy
Tom Kennedy 1
The page has now loaded properly and I scrolled down and saw the answer to my question. So don't worry.
PhotoFinish
PhotoFinish 1
A door pinned open isn't going to kill anyone. Not unless the ramp rat who was supposed to close it was still aboard and he fell out in the air.

The pilots must've figured the light was INOP and were going to MEL it at the end of their trip. When the plane didn't pressurize on takeoff, they quickly knew the warning was correct and they were back on the ground in 6 minutes. They wasted no time, in getting the problem fixed, when they were sure what the real problem was.

Besides as an inward opening door on the 737, with pressurization at altitude, that door is not going to open at altitude.

But pinned open, it won't close itself either.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
That is possible... And by some of the coffee I have been around, corrosive factors might be of concern.. LOL
akayemm
Er.A.K. Mittal 1
Dear Friend R123154, I guess it's ok that this incident was not recorded. Last year during a flight from Colombo, Srilanka, to New Delhi, India, I noticed that AFTER the a/c left the gate it stopped, some guy in a jeep came racing, gestured apparently to cockpit. And she stopped, engines on. The guy on ground came close to a/c did some thing and gestured . The a/c moved . This move/stop happened 3 times. The guy in the jeep always came too close to a/c perhaps doing some thing. I was at the window and saw all this 'drama' . After 3rd clearance the a/c moved off to the runway. Obviously some thing was amiss and the guy tried to 'fix' it but failed 3 times. Then , all was ok.
All part of the game. Part of the professional hazard !
I am sure my pilot friends will have many many more anecdotes of similar type.
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 1
Curious. Well, this Jeff Weingart likely wasn't in the passenger terminal. Here's SWA 48's FA track info:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA48/history/20130905/2300Z/KHOU/KDAL/tracklog

They took off from Runway 04, landed on Runway 12L or 12R, based on the courses recorded. The cargo doors (Forward and Aft) are on the right-hand side of the jet.

Airport Diagram shows location of the terminal:
http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/HOU/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf

Need more info......
spatr
spatr 1
WN is Southwest's airline code.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
That would have the left side of the AC facing the terminal Takeoff & Landing. He could not have seen the (R) side of the AC from the terminal==> he wasn't at the terminal,
he was elsewhere.
Agree, more info needed.
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 1
Would it not be pointed the opposite direction when taxiing?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Yes, but make sure you have good life insurance. LOL
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
Departed from Gate(Per FA) which is right on the end of the terminal.
Taxi via H to Rwy 4 should put left side toward terminal. Doesn't mean
witness had to be in terminal.
joelwiley
joel wiley 0
oops, in fixing 1 typo, deleted gate # should have read 'Gate 50'

[This poster has been suspended.]

sparkie624
sparkie624 2
LOL, I used to work for them. They are so pushed and stressed to the point to do things fast, that quality is never in play. In the time that I worked for them, I was always told to do it fast... Not to do it correct, safe, or anything else.. Just get it finished... 10 min tire changes, 20 min brake changes.. NO WAY. They push too hard and when you do things like this are going to happen. The companies single biggest problem is that they rely too much on pier pressure. That is why I left the company. I am not going to work at a rate of which I feel I could make a mistake that could cost someone thier life.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
It may not necessarily be the case, but it does make you wonder...
ELVIS2009
ERIC DENHAM 1
Somebody at FlightAware isn't too fond of WN... I'd fly Southwest with the aft cargo door open before the other airlines with them closed! I'm glad that these comments are very level headed.

[This poster has been suspended.]

THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
Phil, I almost lost faith in you there!!!
tduggan2010
Tim Duggan 2
The cargo door design on the B737 can NOT "kill" anyone...maybe if it falls on the head of a ramper.

As an aviation "expert", one would think you would know that......
ExCalbr
Victor Engel 2
Please rank all airlines in the order of number of deaths, and see where the cheap SWA ranks.
jrbeejay
John Beech 1
I'm suprised you haven't accused them of being Asian.